MS-16 story

  • Thread starter Thread starter evm1024
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Sounds fun. Yes they need to be baked (remember the What is this stuff on my Otari thread). Quite nasty. Did you notice that the covers were off of a couple of things on one of the spare cards? Whats that about? Just a lazy repair job? I'm pretty sure that one of the cards works.
 
Talldog said:
Sounds fun. Yes they need to be baked (remember the What is this stuff on my Otari thread). Quite nasty. Did you notice that the covers were off of a couple of things on one of the spare cards? Whats that about? Just a lazy repair job? I'm pretty sure that one of the cards works.
Click to expand...

Baking as I type.

Yes, I noticed that the relay covers were off. But I was very happy to see the covers on the other one. I'll build that up like the ones in the MS16.

The relay covers do at least 2 jobs. First they isolate the head switching wires from the other cards - Which would reduce crosstalk and RFI. Secondly they isolate any relay switching noise originating from that relay. Not a big problem due to the timing but it only takes one click....

Yes, lazy workmanship is my guess. They are not hard to put on or take off.

If I'm lucky I'll be able to get the first pass on setting the playback levels tonight. That depends on how hard I'll be slammed at work today.

--Ethan
 
499 wanted

OK once I get this suckker calibrated tot he 456 I have I'll be looking at doing the bias mod (may do that first and cal to 456) and calibrating to 499. The problem here is that I have no 499. I've been looking on ebay and don't want to spend $50+ a reel (and not from tapeandtape).

So does anybody have a reel of 1" 499 that they want to let go cheap?

Regards, Ethan
 
evm1024 said:
OK once I get this suckker calibrated tot he 456 I have I'll be looking at doing the bias mod (may do that first and cal to 456) and calibrating to 499. The problem here is that I have no 499. I've been looking on ebay and don't want to spend $50+ a reel (and not from tapeandtape).

So does anybody have a reel of 1" 499 that they want to let go cheap?

Regards, Ethan
Click to expand...

1. There is no advantage in using 499 or any similar tape if you are going to use noise reduction. The noise level of your recordings will not be any quieter.
2. Don't buy used tape unless you know/trust the vendor. Even n.o.s. can go bad on the shelf. In addition, Quantegy's QC was terrible for several years before they finally threw in the towel for good.
 
1. There is no advantage in using 499 or any similar tape if you are going to use noise reduction. The noise level of your recordings will not be any quieter.
Click to expand...

Rick...he's on a mission. :D

Ethan, I'll keep my eyes/ears out for a deal...wish I had some for you.
 
A day to remember

Today is a day to remember - the MS16 has been calibrated for playback!

-3 dB at 32 Hz, -1 dB at 250, 0 dB at 500 through 16kHz

I've been home with a cold so I took the time to do the palyback cal. I'll get to record soon....

First a quick recap. I bought this thing without an arming panel and with most of the 4000 series logic on the channel cards blown. The kind folks of analog only came up with an arming panel and other needed parts to make a working deck. Some time spent on fixing the blown logic and on replacing all 32 relays. Found a broken wire in one of the DBX cables and a few more simple problems.

Got a MRL tape again from the kind folks here at AO. It was known as a sticky MRL but I'm really greatfull. I baked the hell out of it over the last 2 or 3 days and got it to play without shedding too much. Still sheds so I may try another day or two in the dehydrator. Right now it is in a ziplock with some dessicant packets - I find that this keeps my 1/4" MRL good for about a year or more.

So we have gone from a broken, parts machine to a working machine. Good progress.

Future plans are shaping up. I expect that I will replace the bias cap tomorrow so as to be able to bias 499. Then once the cap is changed out calibrate the record electronics to 456. This will form the baseline for future mods.

Regards, Ethan
 
You rock Ethan! A community deck. I sent Cory some old blank (but used) 456 that didn't shed when I used it. I think I have one more reel. Want to give it a try?
 
Nice work Ethan...

I consider this thread and your MS-16 project in the Special Ops Forces category. :D
 
2 Ms-16

Hi All,
I'm new to this forum. This is great problem solving ! I've been reading through the MS16 adventures!!! Maybe I can join in??

Here's my short story. I have 2 MS-16's that I acquired a few years ago for tape transfer projects. I started to look at the machines about 3 years ago but just ran out of time since I was working all the time. My work load has finally lightened and gonna get back to it.

One has possible motor speed problems and the other has clattering relays. kind of a rhythmic chatter from all...I think all channels.
I just recently saw the MS-16 Extender Board on eBay that I missed bidding on which would be greatly helpful for servicing he R/P cards.
Any help on the chattering relays? I remember the Fostex A8's had this problem, but maybe you can shed some light on it

Thanks!!
Andrew
 
Please do join the fun....

Clicking relays - not heard of that one yet. Perhaps someone else knows.

I do know that it has been recommended to replace the old relays with new. I had thought that was due to contact wear.

If I were looking for the cause of this I would put a scope on one of the relays coils and see if there was any noise or other voltage changes on it that wouuld allow a make then break to happen.

Thic makes me think more of the relay power supply being faulty. Something like a blown diode or something else that limited the current.

One thought would be to remove many of the channel cards and see if the problem goes away on the remaining cards. Removing cards reduces the load.

Best of luck!

--Ethan
 
Relays Clicking??

Thanks for the reply Ethan, I have a line on an extender board. So once I get it and move the machines I'll jump in w/ both feet.

Thanks,
Andrew
 
New opamps....

Over the long Thanksgiving weekend I managed to pull 3 of the 4 opamps out of the 16 channel cards. Why 3 you ask? There are 4 opamps per card. Well, U4 is only used to drive the meters and peak led and is fine as it is. But I digress.

U1, U2 and U3 are all NJM4556 type opamps. Not a bad opamp for the time but time has marched on. After pulling 48 opamps - oh wait - makes that 384 leads desoldered I put in a set of nice IC sockets.

In those sockets I put National Semi LME49860 opamps. The 49860 has very low distortion, great slew rate, good bandwidth and can handle a 44 volt supply (+- 22 volts). Takes more current but not too much for the MS16.

I did not install any PS bypass caps and as it were did not measure any oscillations. Pretty close to a drop in replacement if your PS can handle it.

I have an un-modded spare card that I was using for a reference. Switching back and forth I could hear less background hiss from the LME. Nothing earth shaking but less none the less.

After switching back and forth between a modded card and the unmodded card I did not hear any difference at first. Then as I listened more I started to realize that there was something different. The new opamps just let the music hang in the air - I guess that would be depth and they also tightened up the attack of the drums and Bass guitar. I guess that is punch.

The more I listened the more I realized their depth and clarity. Again, nothing earth shaking but there and real. This was just one track vs another and not all 16 going at once....

OK, sockets in - Check, opamps in - Check. Time to move on to a few passives. Waiting for Christmas Break.

regards, Ethan
 
hehhehheh...

Ethan, that's a marathon for sure. :eek:

Pulling opamps is a whole lot less fun than putting them in.

Do you plan on taking any objective measurements at any point?
 
sweetbeats said:
hehhehheh...

Ethan, that's a marathon for sure. :eek:

Pulling opamps is a whole lot less fun than putting them in.

Do you plan on taking any objective measurements at any point?
Click to expand...

I've got that spare card or 2 that I plan on leaving one stock and making one for testing. Then I can calibrate the stock card along with the modded cards and do a side by side.

So the short answer is yes, when I get a few more mods in I'll set up some a/b tests - same signal, same calibration, same tape.

I have 2 more bad channel cards that may end up in my Ampex atr700.....

Regards, Ethan
 
Huh!

THAT's interesting...I either had never heard or had forgotten that the 700 uses the same channel cards???

What was the production run of the 700 year-wise...do you know?

I didn't realize that the heritage of that card went back that far. The MS16 was introduced in '87 I think, the 58 in '83...wait...TEAC didn't use that same card in the 80-8 did they??? I ask because of the fact that the 80-8 sort of morphed into the 38 and 58, and I recently saw that pic of the 80-8 tape headblock and thought it was cool that the guides and scrape filter that are on the 58 are actually from 80-8 lineage...if that card was used in the 80-8, and/or if the production run of the 700 is back when I thought it was, that is a really long run for a design like that...either means TEAC was skimping and using parts/bin engineering, or that it was that good of a design, or some of both. You've made some positive comments about the design...prolly some of both then (smart parts-bin engineering and good design...)

The 700 had a step-sibling in the TEAC family right? The 6100? And that was reportedly the foundation for the 80-8 transport design?

But I digress...


blahblahblah.
 
sweetbeats said:
Huh!

THAT's interesting...I either had never heard or had forgotten that the 700 uses the same channel cards???

What was the production run of the 700 year-wise...do you know?

I didn't realize that the heritage of that card went back that far. The MS16 was introduced in '87 I think, the 58 in '83...wait...TEAC didn't use that same card in the 80-8 did they??? I ask because of the fact that the 80-8 sort of morphed into the 38 and 58, and I recently saw that pic of the 80-8 tape headblock and thought it was cool that the guides and scrape filter that are on the 58 are actually from 80-8 lineage...if that card was used in the 80-8, and/or if the production run of the 700 is back when I thought it was, that is a really long run for a design like that...either means TEAC was skimping and using parts/bin engineering, or that it was that good of a design, or some of both. You've made some positive comments about the design...prolly some of both then (smart parts-bin engineering and good design...)

The 700 had a step-sibling in the TEAC family right? The 6100? And that was reportedly the foundation for the 80-8 transport design?

But I digress...


blahblahblah.
Click to expand...

The atr700 was made by teac for Ampex. Putting MS16/58 channel cards in it would be a gut and clone operation. Keep the transport logic and perhaps the master bias osc and gut the rest.

The atr700 does use an early opamp in some places and has transformer based mic preamps plus 2 channels input per tape channel (2 mics per channel with built in mixer)

Not easy or straight forward but it could be fun.

How avout MS16 channel cards fed from a Jensen based mic pre for on location recording?

Haw!
 
Oh...my misunderstanding...I thought you were saying the ATR-700 came stock with the same amp card as the 58/MS16...you were talking about an Ethanized ATR-700...an Ampex EVM-700...:D:D:D:D
 
The ATR-700 is a derivation of the Teac A-7300-2T, a half track stereo deck that came out in the mid '70's. I bought one (the Teac version) when they first came out. Time wise, it was right in line with the 80-8, which a bought soon after the 7300, but the two machines shared no electronics that I was aware of at the time.
There they are, side by side, mounted in their custom studio stands. ;)
 

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