modelling preamps

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cstockdale

cstockdale

supafly killa homey
Has anyone heard about a new product coming out by Roland that will be essentially a POD for preamps? The local recording guru at Long and McQuade here in Victoria was just at a Roland clinic and said they were showing off this new product that will come out in the fall that has several dozen preamps modelled and phantom power and is a stereo unit. Like he said, it sure won't sound exactly like you are using an Avalon, but it will be close, and you would have all those flavours to choose from.
 
Oh goody... another crock of shit like the "mic modeler'... wonderful... kill me now.
 
If it's anything like their mic modelling in the VM3100 it will be a pretty useless tool. It might be useful once in a while but definately not something to buy unless you already have everything you could possibly need.
 
AFAIK a Roland guy showed us a VS-880 about five years ago that had mic/pre modelling... didn't work then, won't work now, they just need a new thing to get us into buying stuff from them.


Herwig
 
just curious...don't kill me. But, then again, are all the slamming comments from people who also see the POD/J-station/V-amp as nothing more than toys?

I buy the mic modelling stuff as junk (meaning I am not interested in a mic modeller), and I wouldn't want a "guitar modeller" that could turn my Epi into a Gretsch,

But a preamp modeller is pretty much akin to an amp modeller. I use a J-station and it is an immensely useful tool in my studio, even though I have three real amps to also use, it fills in many of the gaps that the amps don't cover, plus allows for late night recording/practice without waking the neighbourhood. I don't pretend that my Vox AC30 model in the J-station sounds like a real Vox AC30, but it sure sounds good, and I would be interested to have a couple dozen preamp models to add on top of the DMP3, and Mackie VLZ Pros.
 
Well, for now, Fletcher's unfortunately probably right. However, this is a technology that is in it's infancy, and like anything else new, it will need time to mature. The truth is, if they *really could* build, say, a $1000 box that could allow for the creation of *any* sound profile (with the Avalon and Fearn presets), don't you think it would piss off a lot of gear snobs on principle?
If you think old, you get a certain satisfaction that today, the guy with the hammer can still beat the steam drill. John Henry's analog days are numbered.-Richie
 
i would personally rather have a preamp that has one great sound than one that iffily emulates lots of great sounds. i've heard some good-sounding emulating amps (believe it or not, i played through a crate 2x12 combo the other day that sounded great-don't know what it thought it was emulating, but the tone was sweet), but i'd be a little more wary with a preamp. i'd want to know what they tested their pres with, for one thing. an amp that does a great job at turning an sm57 into a neumann U47(speaking COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICALLY here, as i don't believe it can be done very well) might turn everything else into crap, for various reasons involving response curves, overall gain, self-noise, transience, etc. that said, if a thing sounds good, and it's a good price, it's a good deal :D
 
no no no

yer mixing this up with mic modelling, this isn't about making a sm57 sound like a neuman, it is about hooking up your SP or MXL or whatever to a preamp unit and saying I want an approximation of a Joe Meek, or a Grace or an Avalon, just like a POD makes your axe sound like it is coming through a Marshall, or a Vox AC30, or a Fender 65 Blackface twin, PODs don't make your Squier sound like a Les Paul, and this thing I was talkign about won't make a 57 sound like a Neuman.

I agree that mic modelling is a flawed concept, you can't make a mic sound like something else when they have entirely different sensitivities and the physical one you are using simply doesn't capture the sounds the one you are modelling would. An amp (like in PODs) or a preamp is an entirely different matter for modelling, It is about signal modification post-mic, and that is something that has already been proven with guitar amps and bass amps as a decent technology.

I know that a lot of people argue that amp modelling for guitars doesn't sound like the real thing, I agree, but it does sound nice and having a bunch of models of preamps would be an interesting concept. In fact, I think preamp modelling has more of a basis to suceed.

Guitar amp modelling largely fails to be utterly convincing because with real amps there is a physical interaction of the amplified signal (from teh speakers) with the object making the signal (guitar body/strings/pickups). When you are hooked up with headphones, it just isn't quite the same. And if you record a dry signal of a guitar and run it through an amp after the fact so that there is no longer a real guitar in the equation it sounds different: try it. Just like if you hook a guitar up to a POD, but using a Y cable also run a line straight from your guitar to any amp so that there is a noise-field for the guitar to operate in, you will find the POD emulation sounds better and more convincing. Again: try it.

BUT with preamps and mics going direct into a mixer and into a recording device there is no interaction between the amplified signal and the object creating the signal.

I therefore think that preamp modelling actually has more potential than amp modelling based on this. Would it sound exactly like you are using an Avalon, or a Grace? not exactly. But will it sound better than your VLZ Pros....I think it would and am curious to see one of these devices.
 
this is what i get for posting while drunk. kinda like driving while drunk, only everyone in the community knows i've been a dolt straightaway. i could have chosen my sentiment better. my basic opinion is that a preamp, being a single stage in general, as opposed to many of the nice new emulating guitar amps, which often have digital or simply solid-state preamps with TRUE tube stages following (this is what many of them are going toward, more for popular opinion than any other reason, in my opinion), rely more or less exclusively on the emulation concept/technology. had i thought about it longer, i would have meant that the mic emulation was more of an analogy than anything else, and that my opinion is that they are similar animals in many ways. i think it is possible in theory to make a preamp sound like another one, but that few, if any manufacturers take the time to do it right. if/when they do, you're likely to run into the rather high price tags some of the shmancier guitar amps carry, IMO. hope that clarifies my sentiment while not denying the obviousness of a silly half-drunken post last night :D
 
forgiven..... I know I have done the same thing a few times.
 
cstockdale said:
Has anyone heard about a new product coming out by Roland that will be essentially a POD for preamps? The local recording guru at Long and McQuade here in Victoria was just at a Roland clinic and said they were showing off this new product that will come out in the fall that has several dozen preamps modelled and phantom power and is a stereo unit. Like he said, it sure won't sound exactly like you are using an Avalon, but it will be close, and you would have all those flavours to choose from.
Click to expand...

No, but I bet it will be just another price of crap... just like all the crappy mic modeling shit.... and at best, maybe a fun toy.
 
The whole concept of preamp modelling is a little weird. You can't model increased quality in a signal. The signal will never be cleaner than what was put in it and it can only degrade the quality. Those are pretty much the laws of physics.

The only way a preamp modeller could possibly work well is if you fed it a signal from a very high quality and transparent sounding preamp in the first place. The modeller would also have to be calibrated to the preamp.

In regards to PODs and the others I think they have their purposes but making kick ass guitar tones that work in a mix are not one of them.
 
cstockdale said:
it is about hooking up your SP or MXL or whatever to a preamp unit and saying I want an approximation of a Joe Meek, or a Grace or an Avalon, just like a POD makes your axe sound like it is coming through a Marshall, or a Vox AC30, or a Fender 65 Blackface twin, PODs don't make your Squier sound like a Les Paul, and this thing I was talkign about won't make a 57 sound like a Neuman.
Click to expand...

Uhhhh, no.

You can model 'distortion artifacts', you can't "model" shit like 'headroom', 'transient response' [you can model 'lack of transient response' and 'lack of headroom' but that's just another flavor of 'modeling distortions'], etc. etc. etc.

There is no way on this, or any other fucking planet that you can make a 'Joe Meek' sound like a 'DW Fearn' or a 'Martech MSS-10'. Not now, not ever. I'm all for 'breaking laws' whenever possible... but the laws of physics are pretty non-negotiable... even in the digital domain.
 
you know...synthesizers, when they first came out "threatened" to put orchestral players out of work... just like they are doing now. (smirk, smirk)

but...in the right hands, a Roland Orchestral Expansion Card or an Emu can sound pretty darn good. To replace Mr. First Chair Violin Player??? Naw... on a TV soundtrack... sure maybe, but certainly not all the time...

Modelers of all breeds are in a similar catagory imo. Mr. teen-punk that plugs into a POD at Gtr Center is still going to sound like trash. There is no expertise, and he is starting right out of the gate at a disadvantage because of that. He expects the "gadget" to overcome his limitations. However, use the Antares Mic modeler to "help" a home recorded track have a little better "fit" in the mix.. It might be the answer. Not as a cruch, but maybe as another idea.

I think the term "modeler" was the wrong term given anyway. I think that the MORE creative people are the ones that try and get their synths to NOT sound like a chamber quartet, but something more creative. Same with my J-station. It doesn't model a couple of Ampex's flanging against each other, or an Eventide H3000 chorus, but it sure sounds cool on certain settings.
 
Fletcher;
Id try it before I knock it though, Theres been a roland modeling pre called the MMP-2 for years now. perhaps they did some improvement on it. the mmp2 also modeled Compressers and such to with a 24/96 out and usb.

And the preamps had alot of headroom, Ive heard a local studio owner rave about this unit. and it can be had for under $500. Ive been thinking on this one for awhile because with my Digital in on my Akai I would get 2 more inputs enableing me to record 10 tracks at once and put a comp after the rack durring mixdown.

Wayne
 
Ive got a roland mmp-2 and I really like it. I dont have $1000's to spend on mics and I probably cant tell the difference anyway. The mmp-2 has some great features built in including a high quality a/d converter. a parametric equalizer , compressor and expander as well as a de-esser. No you cant make your $12 radio shack mic sound like a $2000 neuman but you can definitely change the characteristics of any mic. If your using 2 mics you can even vary the distance value with a control it has ! and that works great!You can also input your instruments through it direct.
There selling for as little as $200 right now brand new through private sellers. As a matter of fact I can get them brand new for $150 from a connection Ive got. If your interested pm me.
What kind of preamp can you get for that kind of bucks? Even if you dont use the modeling features Its a worthwhile product.


Peace
Bill
 
mixmkr said:
you know...synthesizers, when they first came out "threatened" to put orchestral players out of work...
Click to expand...

Really? What was the first synthesizer?
 
is this a trick question. the first one i know about was the one roger moog built and used for the soundtrack to a clockwork orange. it was supposed to sound like a robot orchestra from the future, not a real orchestra...

anyway, i've played through a brand new POD rack, the fender amp modelers, the vox model, the one by crate, and a v-station, and none of them convince me that they are the amp they say they are. the tube sounds are really weak, and the solid state sounds are too dry. but the light at the end of the tunnel is they sound way better then they did a few years ago, so i have hope that one day they will be a very useful tool. as far as pre-amp modelers go, i hope the same will be true. they will keep getting better and better over the years...just probably not yet.
 
I really like the concept of Randalls modular guitar preamp. Instead of a bunch of digital models they have real analog modules that plug into a larger head. I haven't heard it but that sounds like the right way to do a 'modeller'.

I'd like to see a company come out with more API type preamp modules that fit into a rack. That way they save on packaging and power supplies and they could emulate a lot of good designs and you could purchase them as you go.
 
Richard Monroe said:
Well, for now, Fletcher's unfortunately probably right. However, this is a technology that is in it's infancy, and like anything else new, it will need time to mature. The truth is, if they *really could* build, say, a $1000 box that could allow for the creation of *any* sound profile (with the Avalon and Fearn presets), don't you think it would piss off a lot of gear snobs on principle?
If you think old, you get a certain satisfaction that today, the guy with the hammer can still beat the steam drill. John Henry's analog days are numbered.-Richie
Click to expand...

You know, it is possible to design a mic modeller that actually works. The trick is that you need a high end mic to get all the sublties that an expensive, well designed diaghram would have. Then, it is not much of a trick to create the frequency response and peaks and vallys of the modelled version sinc a microprocessor could auto EQ and model the freq spectrum quite easily. . It will not work with a cheap mic because of the above info. So, if you spend 2-4K for the best mic you can get, with the flatest freq response and a very sensative diaghram, it is possible.
 
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