Micing a cab live

But you can go ahead and think no one else knows anything if you wish.
Click to expand...

shit.

what a crappy thing to say...


sorry bob, but the way you made your statement, made it sound like you didn't know i was talking about feedback between pa speakers, monitors, and what the mic picks up, which is like Sound Reinforcement 101.

that's what a few other folks seems to be hung up on as well, tho going there is taking my point in the opposite direction of the information i was trying to share.

it's just a cleaner way of getting the sound of your amp, into the PA, in a way that does not at all change the sound coming out of your rig.

the pros that use the palmer gear this way, do not seem to have any issues with it at all.
i actually own one of these units, use it, and have compared it against the typical methods, and it holds up.

if you've ever listened to any of my recordings ( i post in the mp3 forum frequently ) then you've heard the feedback and micro acoustics that happen during the performances, all captured without a mic.



i was just trying to help here, i wasn't mining for attitude.
 
GONZO-X said:
the pros that use the palmer gear this way, do not seem to have any issues with it at all.
Click to expand...

Very few of them actually use it for live sound, however, is I think one of the points that almost everyone else in this thread has been making. Yeah, it works, but the vast majority of gigging musicians (even with the budget to go out and buy gear specifically for live sound) still mic up their amps live, rather than using a speaker-emulated send to the board.

At the end of the day, what matters here is what works for you. If you're happy with the Palmer, then right on. However, if it's not an appropriate answer for others, then that's their right, as well. :)
 
Very few of them actually use it for live sound
Click to expand...

this is incorrect.
honestly, drew, sometimes i think you just make this stuff up right off the top of your head!


Alex Lifeson
Palmer PDI-03 speaker simulators (4)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_equipment


Eddie Van Halen's Rig and Tone Techniques
van halen's PDI-03
http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pages/PalmerPDI03.htm



joe bonnamassa, actively using a Palmer
(palmer info starts at 3:05)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7S9bQNkr7k&feature=player_embedded#!
also:
http://www.palmer-germany.com/9-1-guitar-tools.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJXUIgBRElQ




and a pdf from mercenary audio, about the PDI-09 in particular:
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/mercenary-audio/Palmer-PDI09.pdf





phil collen (def leppard) live rig:
we also use two Palmer PDI-05 speaker simulators for the rig. I run a Drawmer gate for a good noise gate on the outputs, which works fantastically well. The output of the Palmers actually goes to the monitor rig, FOH, and then the jump out of that goes into two old Randall RRM-2-250 solid-state power amps, which Phil’s been using since the early ‘80s. Those two amplifiers run four Marshall 4 x 12 cabinets on stage for the on-stage sound, but everything goes through the in-ear monitors on stage, so there’s no microphones on stage anywhere as far as the guitar rig goes!”
http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/jul09/articles/techthat.htm



Michael Landau uses a palmer pdi-04 for sends to effects......


SLASH
"We're using two heads and two cabinets set up on top of each other that go direct (via Palmer PGA-04)"
http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/feb09/articles/slash.htm


Jimmy Johnson: Guitar Tech for Styx
"Jimmy has made a major change to Tommy Shaw’s guitar rig in introducing Palmer PDI-03 speaker simulators."
One major change that Jimmy Johnson has made to Tommy Shaw’s guitar rig in the last year or so is introducing two Palmer PDI-03 speaker simulators, which have not only saved space on the truck, but have also improved Shaw’s tone! Jimmy used to use the original Palmer simulators when working with Rush, but a tricky legal wrangle meant that they went out of production for quite some time.
“So I talked to Tommy and JY [James Young] about them.
As soon as I plugged them in, they loved them, and they almost sound better than a Marshall 4 x 12, if that’s possible, so we loaded up on them. I’ve even got our bass player on them now!”
http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/mar09/articles/techthat_0309.htm




there's lots more....
you can find them.
 
GONZO-X said:
this is incorrect.
honestly, drew, sometimes i think you just make this stuff up right off the top of your head!
Click to expand...

No, I don't. :rolleyes:

Satriani has used them in the studio on the last couple albums (and, IMO, his tone has suffered for it - I've seen him discuss it in interviews and the primary driver was convenience, not tone), but not live (trust me here, I'm a recovering Satch fanboi and still probably the single biggest Satriani gearhead amongst our active posters). Live he definitely still mics up.

Eddie Van Halen, if memory serves, was using the Palmer after a tube power amp not as a way to send a speaker emulated tone to the board, but to send a line level signal with heavy poweramp saturation into a solid state poweramp, driving a guitar cabinet which was then mic'd up conventionally.

I have no idea about the rest of the guys, but considering you gave something like seven sames and of the seven two of them don't use Palmers to send DI signals to the board, I don't think I materially misstated anything, certainly not to the point where it's fair to accuse me of "making stuff up."
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
I'm with Lt. Bob on this one, too - feedback, used musically, can be pretty damned awesome. I'm not sure what kind of music you play or what sort of sound you're after, but I'm probably somewhere in the bluesy hard rock/shred camp. Holding a note and watching it (so to speak) sort of gradually crest into feedback (especially with a bit of delay) mid-solo, or letting a huge power chord ring out and break into feedback is just a fucking awesome sound. Yeah, you can kind of do this using monitors, if you have good monitors, but how often is that the case? Most of us aren't doing arena tours.

Hell, I've even heard microphonic feedback occasionally used to good effect - sort of just slamming your guitar up against the cab and letting the thing just squeal can be a pretty cool way to end a tune. :D

Re: your second question about a bassy cab, that sounds more like user error to me. If you have a heavily bass-EQ'd cab, and you're fighting with the bass guitar, then to me that says you need to roll your bass back on the amp somewhat and leave more space there for the other instruments. The decision to go direct in and of itself won't fix this - it's an EQ problem, not a mic one.
Click to expand...

...and, furthermore, nothing in this post strikes me as deserving negative rep. Kindly go fuck yourself, GONXO-X. I'm not the one being argumentative here, you are.
 
Settle down, guys.

Look, a speaker emulator, whether a Palmer or any of the others around, is nothing more than a modeler. So what it comes down to is, is that model (1) an accurate replication of your actual speakers or (2) capable of generating a speaker simalcrum that is suitable for your intended purpose? Obviously for Gonzo and and number of musicians the answer to one or both of these questions is yes.

It's no different than for an inline amp modeler like a Pod, or a PC-based modeler like Guitar Rig. They're all tools. Use what you need to get the job done to your satisfaction.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
In my defense, I think I've been pretty calm and reasonable right up until my post immediately over yours, but come on, that's totally off base, leaving someone negative rep for a politely spoken difference of opinion. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I agree, but it's only rep. It's not like Teysha fucked your beagle, or anything like that. :laughings:
 
drew, you deserve the negative rep.

you came into this conversation, with this:

Little bit of misinformation here.
Click to expand...

which, right off the bat, is like you saying "I know more than you do".


then you proceeded to administer misinformation yourself.


when i called you on it, you began to argue.




i'll say this:

i would bet.....
you've never used one of these devices, don't have any idea of how they actually sound or feel, and therefore really do not know what you're talking about from experience.




this is the thing that bugs me the most about you...

and i see this occasionally in your posts in other similar threads...


i just tried to help by offering information about a little known device that can actually help some folks, and instead of just saying 'hey thanks, gonzo, maybe i'll try one of these out', or better yet, just bowing out of the conversation because you had nothing else positive to add, you just keep shooting me down, trying to show how the information i was trying to put forth was no good.

some people, just love to argue.

and of course, it takes two...
but i'm calling BS on you.

you don't know what you're talking about on this matter.
i bet.
 
emulation is stupid; live mic'ing is the only way to go ;)

(sorry, had to be a dick for no apparent reason whatsoever)


OP, you ever get what you wanted? the link posted about the shootout btwn the diff mics rocks, and is def better than my sound clips!
 
GONZO-X said:
shit.

what a crappy thing to say...


sorry bob, but the way you made your statement, made it sound like you didn't know i was talking about feedback between pa speakers, monitors, and what the mic picks up, which is like Sound Reinforcement 101.

that's what a few other folks seems to be hung up on as well, tho going there is taking my point in the opposite direction of the information i was trying to share.

it's just a cleaner way of getting the sound of your amp, into the PA, in a way that does not at all change the sound coming out of your rig.

the pros that use the palmer gear this way, do not seem to have any issues with it at all.
i actually own one of these units, use it, and have compared it against the typical methods, and it holds up.

if you've ever listened to any of my recordings ( i post in the mp3 forum frequently ) then you've heard the feedback and micro acoustics that happen during the performances, all captured without a mic.



i was just trying to help here, i wasn't mining for attitude.
Click to expand...
fair enough and that's a reasonable respoinse.
But can I point out that your immediate response to me not completely agreeing with you was to say that "I must not know much about live sound" ?
I saw that you took exception to someone making a similar comment to you.
I don't agree with you totally on the Palmer but I also don't completely disagree with you either and I said so.
But your immediate response was that I must not know much.
THAT'S why i had a bit of an attitude.
I DIDN'T completely disagree with you ..... just partially and your response was basically that I must be stupid.
OK?
Now ..... let me be clear ..... that thing looks interesting and I will definitely check it out for certain circumstances ..... but for my own guitar signal ..... I want what comes out of my speakers ..................... period. And that thing won't provide it ..... let's say I use a Vintage 30 one night and a JBL the next night. The Palmer will basically give the same sound both nights but the sound out of the speakers will be dramatically different. And that's what I'm pointing out. For the guitarist that is persnickety over tiny nuances of his sound ..... the speaker itself can be important and it doesn't mean he's stupid or doesn't know anything just because he wants that specific sound.
I certainly have the background to be able to say what i think is useful for me without being told that that means I must not know anything.

I'm NOT saying the unti is no good or anything like that.
I'm simply saying it's not quite as much of a slam dunk as you would have us believe.
And I do take exception to you saying that means I don't know anything about live sound ........ that's all I'm saying.
I don't think it's a reasonable or fair statement to say that I must not know anything about live sound simply because i disagree with you about the universal usefullness of that unit.
 
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As the OP. I'm not really interested in the Palmer. My band has a reputation for being loud, and i like that. I think i'll continue to make soundmens lives difficult :D

I've played in a metal band with a modeller before. Sounded good at my local venue. Most of the venue's i've played have terrible PA's.
 
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GONZO-X said:
drew, you deserve the negative rep.

you came into this conversation, with this:



which, right off the bat, is like you saying "I know more than you do".


then you proceeded to administer misinformation yourself.


when i called you on it, you began to argue.




i'll say this:

i would bet.....
you've never used one of these devices, don't have any idea of how they actually sound or feel, and therefore really do not know what you're talking about from experience.




this is the thing that bugs me the most about you...

and i see this occasionally in your posts in other similar threads...


i just tried to help by offering information about a little known device that can actually help some folks, and instead of just saying 'hey thanks, gonzo, maybe i'll try one of these out', or better yet, just bowing out of the conversation because you had nothing else positive to add, you just keep shooting me down, trying to show how the information i was trying to put forth was no good.

some people, just love to argue.

and of course, it takes two...
but i'm calling BS on you.

you don't know what you're talking about on this matter.
i bet.
Click to expand...

Gonzo, I disagreed with you, but I was perfectly polite about it.

Furthermore, you WERE incorrect on a couple points. A speaker simulator's output is no "easier" to EQ than a mic's (the EQ doesn't care where the signal is coming from), and choosing and positioning a microphone offers a lot more tonal flexibility than the couple switches on a Palmer. And the two guys whose names I mentioned - Joe Satriani has used a Palmer on a number of studio albums, but he most certaintly doesn't use one live, and Eddie Van Halen used one as a means to send a line-level signal from a (completely saturated) tube poweramp into a solid state power amp which was then fed through a cab that was mic'd up conventionally. I didn't say everyone you mentioned wasn't using a Palmer, just that you were wrong on at least two counts.

And frankly, Legionserial is correct, you're coming off a bit like an industry shrill here. Yours wasn't a simple, "hey, I use a Palmer, it's pretty cool, maybe give it a try" comment, but post after post of "don't bother with a mic, this is SOOOO much better, just do it, don't listen to anyone else but me" and then you've proceeded to question the intelligence of everyone who didn't agree with you that a Palmer was better than a mic - myself, Lt. Bob, and miroslav.

And then you accuse me of being argumentative. :rolleyes:

DrewPeterson7 said:
At the end of the day, what matters here is what works for you. If you're happy with the Palmer, then right on. However, if it's not an appropriate answer for others, then that's their right, as well. :)
Click to expand...

This is the point I've been trying to make for the entire thread, and I did so in a polite, not-condescending (that "misinformation" comment wasn't intended as a slight, sorry if you took it that way) manner. I never questioned anyone's intelligence, nor did I suggest anyone didn't "know about" live sound. I really don't understand why you think I deserved negative rep for that.
 
Lt. Bob

can I point out that your immediate response to me not completely agreeing with you was to say that "I must not know much about live sound" ?
Click to expand...

bob, i wasn't saying that at all.
you read into it, what you wanted to read into it. you've got some issue, that doesn't have anything to do with me.


i assume that there are lots of folks here, that have tons of experience, and some that have none at all.

i don't know you, so i posed the question realistically--
and i explained myself- again, your comment that you DID want feedback, sounded like you thought the palmer took away the ability of the guitar to feedback to the amp...
and I was only talking about P.A. feedback!

feedback from an amp and speaker cabinet, absolutely goes back thru the amp. it's a synergistic thing, that does not happen separate of each other.

if it goes thru the amp, it goes thru the palmer.

the ONLY thing the palmer doesn't pickup, is the bleed over from other soundsources, like drums or bass or rumbling stage floors, or the ambient noise of the room, and the overtones of the cabinet itself, which more times than not, works against you in a live situation.

did you even bother to read all or any of the articles i provided?
you should.


chamelious
that's fine, man.
like i said, i was only trying to help, and with so many pro loud and hard rock and metal acts using the palmers, maybe eventually you'll remember this thread.


legionserial
no shit, man, i wished!
LOL
then i'd actually get something for my trouble.



DrewPeterson7

Gonzo, I disagreed with you, but I was perfectly polite about it.
Click to expand...

Kindly go fuck yourself, GONXO-X.
Click to expand...

sure you were, drew, whatever you say, man.


A speaker simulator's output is no "easier" to EQ than a mic's
Click to expand...

of course it is.
try boosting 8db at 80hz on a mic in a live situation.
now try it on the palmer....

see what i mean?
oh, you don't have a palmer, so you can't see what i mean.











you are trying to tell me all about a tool, that you haven't used, and don't even own.
but i do. and all i was trying to do, was share working knowledge and information. i would have loved to have had this thing YEARS ago.

just do yourself a favor, and at least read about it, enough to understand it, because clearly you do not.

like i said before, you just like to argue.
 
GONZO-X said:
DrewPeterson7

sure you were, drew, whatever you say, man.


of course it is.
try boosting 8db at 80hz on a mic in a live situation.
now try it on the palmer....

see what i mean?
oh, you don't have a palmer, so you can't see what i mean.

you are trying to tell me all about a tool, that you haven't used, and don't even own.
but i do. and all i was trying to do, was share working knowledge and information. i would have loved to have had this thing YEARS ago.

just do yourself a favor, and at least read about it, enough to understand it, because clearly you do not.

like i said before, you just like to argue.
Click to expand...


:rolleyes:

That was my response to your leaving me negative rep. Considering you'd already left me negative rep a couple hours before I posted that, my response is hardly evidence to the contrary. And, as I already admitted, I was overreacting. My apologies.

Boosting 8db on a mic? Easy as pie. Use a parametric EQ on the board to adjust 80hz up by 8db with a Q of your choice. The EQ doesn't care where the source sound originated. Why you'd want to boost a guitar there, of course, is an entirely different story - I'd be worried about the interplay with the kick and bass, but that's neither here nor there.

And, again, all you're doing is questioning my knowledge and insinuating I'm stupid and argumentative. I've very familiar with a Palmer - for a while I even kind of wanted one myself, though after hearing a bunch of clips (notably, the albums Satriani recorded with one) my interest cooled significantly.

More to the point, I'm not telling you not to use it. If you like it, great, continue to use the thing, with my blessing. However, considering the OP was asking for micing advice, considering he's since clarified he's not interested in using an emulator, considering a couple of the guys you mentioned as examples of people who use Palmers live (Satch and EVH) don't actually use them for speaker emulation live, and considering you seem to be hell-bent on turning this thread from a discussion of the best way to attach a mic to a cabinet for live use into a discussion of why everyone who doesn't agree with you that Palmers are way better than mics is a moron, I'm really wondering what your problem is here.

You're questioning the intelligence of anyone who doesn't share your opinion, being incredibly obnoxious and condescending, and yet you think I'm the one being condescending, somehow? Right up until you left me negative rep, I was very polite with you. I'm still being, save for that one outburst, relatively even. What's your problem, then? You're the one accusing me of not being able to understand, of being argumentative, of being full of BS, and of making stuff up. Did I miss anything? :rolleyes:
 
GONZO-X said:
Lt. Bob
bob, i wasn't saying that at all.
you read into it, what you wanted to read into it. you've got some issue, that doesn't have anything to do with me.
Click to expand...

Well look ..... I'm not getting into a pissing match with you and I have no issue whatsoever (another little snide remark you tossed in there). I'm a happy successful musician with a great life even if wifey and I have a few challenges right now.
I didn't read anything into what you said other than to repeat it basically verbatim.
Here's the EXACT thing you said:
GONZO-X said:
it seems you're not that familiar with live sound application......?
Click to expand...

That's exactly saying I must not know much about live sound ..... there's nothing else to get from that since that's exactly your words.

Now ...... once again ........ I think it's probably a great unit ...... but it will NOT pick up the sonic differences between different speakers themselves ..... only a mic will do that.
whether that matters or not is dependent upon the needs of the player.
That unit won't suit my needs on guitar although it would probably be excellent on bass which I will investigate since I have need for one. So I'm not dismissing your suggestion and advice ....... even though you dismissed the idea that I might know anything. I'm always interested in new gear and the opinions of those that have used it and, in this case, that means you and the Palmer.
I don't mind having equipment discussions and even heated arguments over them ...... but don't toss out insults and then not be man enough to own up to them.

Talk equipment ........ I'm interested in your knowledge ....... I'm not interested in being insulted when I didn't give you a reason to do so.
And BTW, I'm being scrupuously polite here ..... try and do the same.
 
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