Theoretical question - when micing a 4x12, is there a reason to prefer a single speaker or two speakers when using two mics?

[DrewPeterson7]

Been thinking about this lately - my aporoach has always been informed by that old (and amazing) Slipperman tutorial, where pertinent to this particular question is, see if you can find a favorite speaker on a 4x12, then put your mic in front of that one.

He kind of bypassed the while question of a single mic vs multiples, though, and as I'm wrapping up tracking a project and getting ready to start reamping, I've been thinking a bit about this.

I'll rerun the "stick your ear in front of it and listen at volume" test again to make sure that my preferences (or, hell, the speakers - it's a cab I've owned for 15 years now) haven't changed with time, but I've usually mic'd the lower left speaker, facing the cab. SM57 on the grill, just off the dust cap, and *something else* (usually a MD421, and that's been winning all the shootouts I've done so far) on the same speaker, a little further out, in part because it captures higher highs AND lower lows, and in part because this help deepen and thicken the SM57. Also right on the grill (I've tried more distant approaches, but for what are at the end of the day still hard rock tones whatever I may be doing with them, proximity effect and immediacy always seem to win out), then fart around with the two mics out of phase until they sound spectaclarly badly, then bring them back into phase to get. phase-coherent recording.

But, after doing some testing with a third WA87 in the mix the other day and by necessity having to put it on a differtent speaker (lack of real estate) I found myself wondering, real estate aside, are there any theoretical advantages to micing two diffrent speakers like this? Cab is four V30s, so speaker choice isn't an issue.

I know the "right" and I put that in air quotes for a reason, answer here is "use your ears," but let's be honest - close mics on a guitar cab, a couple milimeters difference in position is going to change your sound enoguh to trump differences from one speaker to the next, so the odds of being able to test this scientifically are slim to none. So, I'm interested in any theoretical approaches to answering this - SHOULD one approach be better than another?

 

[TalismanRich]

Do the individual speakers really sound significantly different? I could see if you have V30s and Greenbacks in the same cab, you will have a different sound profile, but speakers of the same type shouldn't be appreciably different.

You see amps with a little tape box on them so that the roadie can set the mic up in the same position night after night. Find the spot you like, mark it if you want the tone to be the same and move on. I can't see any "right or wrong" as to which speaker to use.

As for putting your ear in the spot and listening "at volume", unless you're playing at low level, it's probably not recommended. As many of us can attest, hear loss is real.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

You'd just mic one 12" speaker anyway. More than one in a cabinet is not needed.

 

[Papanate]

You'd just mic one 12" speaker anyway. More than one in a cabinet is not needed.

At a minimum I use 2 mics on a cabinet - a 121 and a 57 - classic sound - when I mic 4x12s I tend to use 4 to 6 mics - in good rooms with lots of space.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

You'd just mic one 12" speaker anyway. More than one in a cabinet is not needed.

Yeah, I'm with @Papanate here - I always start by getting that first SM57 sounding as good as possible on its own as the 'core' of the sound I'm capturing... but even a pair of SM57s sounds exponentially fuller, lusher, and more 'balanced' than a single. I did the one mic thing for years and made some pretty good sounding recordings that way, but in the last decade there have been a couple places where I've changed up my approach, and adding a second mic on guitar tracks, especially for lead guitars, is hand down the biggest.

Not saying anyone else has to do it this way... just that for ME, this does a far better job capturing the sounds I'm chasing.

I did play back all three mics, a SM57, MD421, and WA87, the other night while testing this stuff, and they sounded glorious toghether... but considering I'm still considering layering a reamped take of my Mark V against one of my Roadster, six total tracks of lead guitar does feel a little excessive... and when I moved the MD421 to get it as close to where I had the WA87's capsule, I got 99% of the way there, so I think I might just stop with two. Maybe for some of the melodic clean parts I could see adding the 87 as a distant room mic or something, but for the higher gain ones, I don't know if I see a point (easier to test, though, than my original question).

Do the individual speakers really sound significantly different? I could see if you have V30s and Greenbacks in the same cab, you will have a different sound profile, but speakers of the same type shouldn't be appreciably different.

All four are V30s, and differences between each of them are very subtle. I guess I'm more wondering if, oh, you tend to have less phase issues on seperate speakers than two mics on the same speaker for some reason having to do with the way a speaker vibrates... but that doens't make a ton of sense to me, because if the speakers weren't in phase alignment, that would sound like dogshit as you walked around the room.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Update here - I also asked this question on a MUCH more active guitar board, and while the depth of recording experience wasn't as heavy there, the consensus I got was that it probably doesn't matter, the bigger factors are likely going to be proximity to the floor and any impact from early reflections there, but from a convenience standpoint it's likely easier to mic separate speakers.

So, when the time comes, I'll re-audition all the speakers and probably mic separate ones anyway.

 

[Papanate]

Update here - I also asked this question on a MUCH more active guitar board, and while the depth of recording experience wasn't as heavy there, the consensus I got was that it probably doesn't matter, the bigger factors are likely going to be proximity to the floor and any impact from early reflections there, but from a convenience standpoint it's likely easier to mic separate speakers.

So, when the time comes, I'll re-audition all the speakers and probably mic separate ones anyway.

The depth of a 4 x12 cabinet is what I try to capture - you can directly mic one or two of the speakers (your choice) - but to get that viking roar from the cabinet I use ambient mics at various distances.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

The depth of a 4 x12 cabinet is what I try to capture - you can directly mic one or two of the speakers (your choice) - but to get that viking roar from the cabinet I use ambient mics at various distances.

Tried it, didn't like it. For whatever reason a pair of close mics seems to get me what I want out of a 4x12. And a Mesa Recto flat-front, there's no shortage of roar even up close; those are big-sounding cabs.

Though, a WA87 a couple feet back absolutely nailed an 80s rock lead sound, in conjunction with a SM57. If I wanted to do Satriani covers, I now have a micing strategy. Because obviously THAT was always the limiting factor.

 

[Papanate]

Tried it, didn't like it. For whatever reason a pair of close mics seems to get me what I want out of a 4x12. And a Mesa Recto flat-front, there's no shortage of roar even up close; those are big-sounding cabs.

I am a more atmospheric player - so the cabinet doesn’t reflect a direct sound so much a all over all tone - I’ve gone old school Ala Jimmy Page.

Though, a WA87 a couple feet back absolutely nailed an 80s rock lead sound, in conjunction with a SM57. If I wanted to do Satriani covers, I now have a micing strategy. Because obviously THAT was always the limiting factor.

80s and some of the early 90s tones were easy to get IMO.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I am a more atmospheric player - so the cabinet doesn’t reflect a direct sound so much a all over all tone - I’ve gone old school Ala Jimmy Page.

80s and some of the early 90s tones were easy to get IMO.

Ah, definitely more contemporary, think more recent Satch, Andy Timmons' last few albums, Nick Johnston, that kind of thing.

 

[Bstrom]

Yeah, I'm with @Papanate here - I always start by getting that first SM57 sounding as good as possible on its own as the 'core' of the sound I'm capturing... but even a pair of SM57s sounds exponentially fuller, lusher, and more 'balanced' than a single. I did the one mic thing for years and made some pretty good sounding recordings that way, but in the last decade there have been a couple places where I've changed up my approach, and adding a second mic on guitar tracks, especially for lead guitars, is hand down the biggest.

Not saying anyone else has to do it this way... just that for ME, this does a far better job capturing the sounds I'm chasing.

I did play back all three mics, a SM57, MD421, and WA87, the other night while testing this stuff, and they sounded glorious toghether... but considering I'm still considering layering a reamped take of my Mark V against one of my Roadster, six total tracks of lead guitar does feel a little excessive... and when I moved the MD421 to get it as close to where I had the WA87's capsule, I got 99% of the way there, so I think I might just stop with two. Maybe for some of the melodic clean parts I could see adding the 87 as a distant room mic or something, but for the higher gain ones, I don't know if I see a point (easier to test, though, than my original question).


All four are V30s, and differences between each of them are very subtle. I guess I'm more wondering if, oh, you tend to have less phase issues on seperate speakers than two mics on the same speaker for some reason having to do with the way a speaker vibrates... but that doens't make a ton of sense to me, because if the speakers weren't in phase alignment, that would sound like dogshit as you walked around the room.

Having multiple tracks in phase for processing is always an advantage to me - beats playing doubling tracks and fighting all that. Loy=ts of creative choices - stereo panning, reverb, effects, etc.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Having multiple tracks in phase for processing is always an advantage to me - beats playing doubling tracks and fighting all that. Loy=ts of creative choices - stereo panning, reverb, effects, etc.

I mean, for rhythm tracks I'm doubling them anyway - no matter how many mics you throw at a cab, doubled rhythms are always going to sound bigger, to say nothing of much, much wider. Leads are a different story of course, though honestly a well positioned SM57 doesn't need MUCH help.

But, for the sake of what I'm talking about here, and in the context of instrumental rock guitar mixes, both cab mics will be panned together and treated in the mix as a single take and track. It's possible I may EQ them individually, though honestly I may not, just throw them into a bus together and hit them at that level and only really adjust the balance between the two.