Micing a cab live

[miroslav]

no, this is completely wrong.

it sees the full output of the amp (post power output and transformer section)

As I said in my *EDIT*...I see that you CAN use it in-between the amp and speakers....however, that's the only way you will get the "full output" of the amp.
If you just use the Line Out found on some amps...chances are pretty good you are only getting the preamp section output and not also the power amp section.
They even kinda say that on the Palmer web page:

"It can be used with line level preamps…."

I don't know how you use it or which amps you use it with...but if it is from the Line Out on your amps...check the manual and see where the Line Out gets its signal from on your amps.
Same thing with most FX Loops...they usually get the signal from the preamp section.

Either way....it looks like a useful device if it meets your needs.

 

[GONZO-X]

the rig:

guitar goes to the pedalboard, with the requisite overdrive, compressor, noise gate, tuner, wah and vibe....

that goes into a 1981 Mesa Boogie Mark2B 60 watt short shell head....

out of that, directly into the Palmer PDI-09, which is how i capture the sound that goes on the recording. at line level.

out of the palmer thru a parallel out, into a Weber Mass lite attenuator, so i can bring the cabinet volume down for monitoring or micing, at either whisper or screaming volume.

out of the Mass Lite, into a AVATAR vintage closed back cab, with a Celestion Heritage G12.


i can mic that cab using either a sm57, or a AT4033, and blend it with the direct Palmer sound, or just use the Palmer signal, which is what i typically do.

A Yamaha DG stomp effects pedal, is in the effects loop of the boogie, which is great live, but i never use it for recording..

i always record bone dry, and add effects at mix down.


the way i record with it tho, the palmer pdi-09 comes directly off of the amp output, BEFORE the weber sees it, and that's what goes to the mixer.

the weber then attenuates, and i have the option of micing the cab at that point, so the direct sees full output, the cab sees the attenuated output.
i can control the 'monitoring' volume at any volume up to full output (60 watts is pretty freakin' loud)......

or i can crank down on the attenuator, and record the boogie at full output, but at whisper volume.
i'd prefer an isolation room with a wide open cabinet, but alas, the landlord does not like that sound.

LOL

 

[GONZO-X]

and FWIW, i've NEVER heard a line level out of any guitar amp that sounded good.

 

[GONZO-X]

and again, i say, hearing is believing.

just listen to it..

 

[miroslav]

Nice rig you got there.

and FWIW, i've NEVER heard a line level out of any guitar amp that sounded good.

Not sure what you're trying to say...but just for clarity...
...as you described your connections, the signal you are sending out to the PA mixer/recording device IS a Line Level, preamp-only signal.
It's not the the "full amp" signal you were talking about earlier...unless that head somehow has a post-power amp, Line Level signal (which is not typical of most amps with Line Level outputs).

Though like I said...if it works for you, then it's the right setup.

PS

I have a couple of those Avatar Vintage cabs...a 112 w/G12H30 and a 212 w/G12H30 & Greenback...nice cabs.

 

[ocnor]

Nice rig you got there.

Not sure what you're trying to say...but just for clarity...
...as you described your connections, the signal you are sending out to the PA mixer/recording device IS a Line Level, preamp-only signal.
It's not the the "full amp" signal you were talking about earlier...unless that head somehow has a post-power amp, Line Level signal (which is not typical of most amps with Line Level outputs).

Though like I said...if it works for you, then it's the right setup.

PS

I have a couple of those Avatar Vintage cabs...a 112 w/G12H30 and a 212 w/G12H30 & Greenback...nice cabs.

He runs the amp's speaker output into the palmer which then attenuates the signal down to line level. So yes it is the "full amp" signal.

 

[miroslav]

Thanks for pointing that out.

I guess I was reading his description differently since he didn't specifically say if the Palmer is fed by the Line Out or Speaker Out of the amp...
..but I see now that's what he is doing, using the Speaker Out.



Yeah, that box is quite similar to the Radial that I have....they are priced about the same, and both are very usefull.

 

[GONZO-X]

Not sure what you're trying to say...but just for clarity...

i'll try to explain it.
some amp manufacturers, including MESA, have tried to provide line level outputs from their amps for years.
mine has one, and it was made in 1981 !!!!

LOL

anyway, i've used a ton of these.

they always sound like crap.


now, the palmer, does it different..

it can take the full wattage output of a tube amp.
100 watts, it doesn't care.

it applies a cabinet filter to that sound, allows it to continue on thru to the speaker cab, but it steals a line level off of that signal.

THAT is what it sends to the mixer, or DAW.

It's not the the "full amp" signal you were talking about earlier...unless that head somehow has a post-power amp....

no, you don't understand, i'll try to make it a bit more clear....

the Speaker out, IS the "post-power amp" output.


you are getting preamplifier line out, Power amp/speaker out, and the line level from a device downstream of the speaker out, all confused with each other.



what's funny is, once you have the experience of working with these things, the light goes DING, and it's dirt easy to grasp the concept of where the tone is coming from, what the filter is doing, how it gets to line level, etc.

 

[miroslav]

you are getting preamplifier line out, Power amp/speaker out, and the line level from a device downstream of the speaker out, all confused with each other.

No, no...I got it (as I already said in my last post), I was simply not clear from your previous post wordings how YOU were connecting it...but I know the differences of those three things.

I guess we are both saying the same thing...Line Outs on amps are not that great sounding!

 

[ZoSo58LP]

If you've had experience with both i'd love to hear you expand upon this a bit??? Would be awesome

hey man, yeah this topic got a little wild haha...i actually have some recordings on my comp of the same exact thing but recorded with the SM and the Sennheiser...basically, i set up each mic on the speaker and then split the signal so i could hear what both sounded like while i played the same thing...im on my laptop now but ill upload in a bit

 

[WhiteStrat]

If you've had experience with both i'd love to hear you expand upon this a bit??? Would be awesome

Here's an old mic shootout I did with a bunch of mics on electric guitar--including the 57 and the 609.

http://www.spottedmuse.com/shootout/

 

[moresound]

Now if your working a gig and a band comes in with full stack Marshalls and huge SVT Bass rigs and the microphone is redundant(just for looks at this point) It's just up there in front of the cab and not even in the mix cause the stage volume of the amps is just way to loud,... the pdi-09 won't help much in this case either. will it?

 

[cephus]

I screw one of these on the front of almost every amp I have ever owned.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131024&CAWELAID=107597920

I screw one of these into it:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131023

And then clip one of these on:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure-SM57-InstrumentVocal-Microphone?sku=270102

I think that soundmen love direct injection because they have total control. It is much tidier for them. I am afraid of them because I have known far more soundmen who were dumbasses than geniuses.

That said, a good direct signal with a good soundman would probably be good enough. I doubt the listening customers could tell the difference anyway.

 

[Lt. Bob]

and the palmer is typically just as cheap as a decent dynamic.

but has way more opportunity for tonal changes.

plus, ZERO FEEDBACK

probably the biggest plus of all

dude ...... I WANT feedback ..... part of the sound and part of what you can do with an electric.
Plus , a HUGE part of the sound is the speaker which you won't get from this even if it's between the amp and the speaker.
It would be great for some players I suppose ...... someone running a clean or jazzy sound for one example but it definitely wouldn't capture what I'm getting out of my speaker right behind me.

 

[GONZO-X]

dude ...... I WANT feedback .....

no, i'm quite sure you do not.


i'm talking about on-stage feedback, low end feedback between the mic and the PA...


it seems you're not that familiar with live sound application......?


and i think you missed the point....

without a mic, there's no BLEED.

ever had a bass-heavy eq'd cabinet, sitting right next to a bass-heavy-eq'd bass guitar rig?
or had your cab right next to a kick drum?
super bassy monitors?
any of that?

 

[GONZO-X]

if you get feedback from your guitar cabinet, BACK into your PICKUPS, and that translates into harmonics back from the amp, ALL of that goes thru the palmer.
LOL

 

[Lt. Bob]

it seems you're not that familiar with live sound application......?

ummmm, I think I'm quite familiar with it.
I've had a studio for 40+ years and have done live sound for 40+ years and have made my entire living (and still do) playing live 6 and 7 nights a week for 40+ years. You're fond of calling your 6 years of live sound 'many years'.
Well to me it's not but a couple of years.
I absolutely know a lot about live applications and I certainly know enough to know what I need for me.

I did say that for some applications it would be ok ...... but not for all.
But you can go ahead and think no one else knows anything if you wish.

 

[Zaphod B]

In my experiences with performing live (spanning over 35 years), feedback and bleed are much more of an issue with vocal mics than with the mics on guitar cabs or even drum mics. Of course, any kind of direct-in approach that brings the guitars' stage volume to zero will eliminate those sources of bleed into the vocal mics.

Then you get into the whole issue of whether or not you want stage volume, and how much. Personally I would prefer to hear what's actually coming off my actual speakers than some emulation of that being fed back through a monitoring system. But, hey, that's just me being old school, I guess. In some small club situations you would want the guitar, bass and drums' stage voume to be adequate on their own, with maybe kick and snare in the mix, and guitar leads brought up through the mix a little if necessary.

An SM57 in front of a cab is simple enough, notwithstanding the ability of some sound men to fuck up anything.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

no, i'm quite sure you do not.


i'm talking about on-stage feedback, low end feedback between the mic and the PA...


it seems you're not that familiar with live sound application......?


and i think you missed the point....

without a mic, there's no BLEED.

ever had a bass-heavy eq'd cabinet, sitting right next to a bass-heavy-eq'd bass guitar rig?
or had your cab right next to a kick drum?
super bassy monitors?
any of that?

I'm with Lt. Bob on this one, too - feedback, used musically, can be pretty damned awesome. I'm not sure what kind of music you play or what sort of sound you're after, but I'm probably somewhere in the bluesy hard rock/shred camp. Holding a note and watching it (so to speak) sort of gradually crest into feedback (especially with a bit of delay) mid-solo, or letting a huge power chord ring out and break into feedback is just a fucking awesome sound. Yeah, you can kind of do this using monitors, if you have good monitors, but how often is that the case? Most of us aren't doing arena tours.

Hell, I've even heard microphonic feedback occasionally used to good effect - sort of just slamming your guitar up against the cab and letting the thing just squeal can be a pretty cool way to end a tune.

Re: your second question about a bassy cab, that sounds more like user error to me. If you have a heavily bass-EQ'd cab, and you're fighting with the bass guitar, then to me that says you need to roll your bass back on the amp somewhat and leave more space there for the other instruments. The decision to go direct in and of itself won't fix this - it's an EQ problem, not a mic one.

 

[Zaphod B]

Re: your second question about a bassy cab, that sounds more like user error to me. If you have a heavily bass-EQ'd cab, and you're fighting with the bass guitar, then to me that says you need to roll your bass back on the amp somewhat and leave more space there for the other instruments. The decision to go direct in and of itself won't fix this - it's an EQ problem, not a mic one.

+1 on this.

Guitarists tend to want to set the EQ on their rigs "full-range" - something that sounds very full on its own. Usually it translates into too much bottom end. That's not the best approach to use if you want your rig to find its space within the mix.