Maybe you should read this

[Han]

A great thread indeed, very good thoughts.

Harley, you have a good point. Nothing will beat a really great microphone. And all small differences together can make you very happy or unhappy. I am not going to sell my Neumanns.

My friend the collecter travels all over Europe to find the nice ones and sometimes he gets them for rediculously low prices.

The point is that the homerecording engineer of today has so much nicer gear for a fairly low price than 30 years ago.

My next purchase will be a pair of really good SDC's, I'm thinking of Sanken CU31/32's

Thanks!

 

[malcolm123]

I myself personally come here everyday. My main reason for my visits is to learn. Mostly due to my location I cannot really test mics out so I tend to read the posts and weigh the critisms of one mic to the praises. I have purchased maybe 4 different mics based on posts from this forum whithout ever hearing the mics. some were just right others not as good for the purpose I tried them on,, but overall they will be of some help later on.

The only mic I have purchased based on comments from this forum that I really didnt have a need for nor did I want to apply it to a certain application was the SP B1. I bought the d@mn thing because of all the Posts and the fact that is was cheap as hell. I figured for 80+bucks,, what the hell. I can just add it to my collection and use it one day when the time is right.

Now I am in the market for a higher end mic for my needs. I have been reading the posts and have narrowed it down to 4 or so mics. Then the problem sits in with me again. I cant hear the damn mics so I lean towards the posts. I gotta be a little more careful with this purchase due to the amount of money. But based on my genre of music (Hip Hop),, If I see another studio on the television with that d@mn Sure mic in front of some rapper (I dont know which model it is), ima buy that mic based on just that,, shit ,,, if it works for them it should work for me as well. If it sucks ,,,well another lesson learned with Audio Gear purchases.

Good thread

Malcolm

 

[DJL]

harley96, ask Han about his monitoring system and that might help shine some light on the problem of his hearing a difference.

 

[littledog]

i live off baked beans and water to pay for my expensive habits...i'm happy to suffer to save for my next purchase.

I hope your control room has good ventilation...

 

[noisedude]

hehe yeah cos it's my bedroom!! it's got, like, windows and everyfink!

DJL, try to contain your needless jibes for a thread more befitting them. This just ain't the place for you to bring your grudges. Do you want to contribute to the discussion? Have you anything to say on any of the topics? Try to understand that no-one even cares enough to question your credibility and there is no reason for you to weigh in on Han just because he disagrees.

Another moment of enlightenment - people have OPINIONS. Yours are that SP = crap (although I know you've admitted that they're 'capable' for the price) and that anyone with experience and knowledge who disagrees with that is deserving of some attack. I'm genuinely sorry you're so insecure.

 

[noisedude]

Just to clarify - I'm not disputing that you DO offer concise and informed opinions on questions on more expensive mics. Kudos man, you obviously have used a lot of different stuff. Just chill out on the SP stuff ... apart from where they actually are spamming and then let them have it

 

[ausrock]

But were they spamming?

Way, way back, when the heirachy of this site were still active here and about 6 people were accusing Alan Hyatt of spamming, the moderator publicly stated that AH was not spamming, a decision that was supported by the site's owner...............that should have been the end of that issue, at least on this site.

 

[Han]

DJL, what's your monitor system?

There's a world of difference between the many mics there are these days, but like Noisedude said earlier, the difference isn't as big as many of us think.

The difference between a Neumann M149 and an MXL V77 is not hearable for many unexperienced listeners who nevertheless love music and listen to music a lot.

I've said before in another post that I was recording a band who has won a band contest. When we were tracking the lead vocals with the B1 next to the Neumann, three of the four bandmembers didn't hear any difference, although the difference was significant.

This afternoon I was recording a vocalist and he didn't like the B1, but he also didn't like the Neumann. In the end his choice was the Beyer M69, which he liked more than the M88.

Odd isn't it?

I know many homerecording dudes will never be able to buy a hi end microphone and they may think that a mic like ELA M will sound a million times better than their best mic. Well, it's not.

Noisedude is perfectly right, the difference isn't that big. You can buy the best mics and gear, but in the end it's the skill of the engineer (and the musician) that's most important.

IOW, you can make a very lousy sound with for a million bucks of gear.

BTW, my monitors are NS10's , Sony G7 (very expensive hi end speakers from the late seventies) amped by a Harman Kardon Citation Sixteen, JBL TLX2, StudioDeSchop Climax, Westlake, Tannoy Arden, a number of home stereo's like JVC, Sony, Pioneer, Altec Lansing.

Headphones are Sennheiser HD580.

How's that?

 

[noisedude]

I listened to an old Ash album, they were big in the UK a couple of years ago. I found out most of the songs I loved by them were 'dreadfully' recorded, with out of tune guitars, noisy drums and vocal parts sitting way too far forward in the mix and exposing the weaknesses of the singer's voice. But turn it up loud on any stereo and you still have some of the indie anthems of the late nineties...and people love 'em.

Gomez's first album sounded like it was taped in a shed...which was actually more upmarket than the garage they actually did do it in....yet it launched them as a massive alternative act. I know we fuss about the minutiae of it all but really you can't replace a good tune and a lot of soul.

 

[rvdsm]

The difference between a Neumann M149 and an MXL V77 is not hearable for many unexperienced listeners who nevertheless love music and listen to music a lot.

Have you done your own studies on this matter, or are you assuming this?

I've said before in another post that I was recording a band who has won a band contest. When we were tracking the lead vocals with the B1 next to the Neumann, three of the four bandmembers didn't hear any difference, although the difference was significant..

What Neumann? Also if this is your study you definitely chose bad subjects. Most bands can't tell you the difference between a Marshall and a Fender, although they sound completely different.

This afternoon I was recording a vocalist and he didn't like the B1, but he also didn't like the Neumann. In the end his choice was the Beyer M69, which he liked more than the M88

Odd isn't it?...

Not really. That's usually why studios have more than one mic.

I know many homerecording dudes will never be able to buy a hi end microphone and they may think that a mic like ELA M will sound a million times better than their best mic. Well, it's not. ...

Again, are you speculating or do you have proof of this claim?

Noisedude is perfectly right, the difference isn't that big. You can buy the best mics and gear, but in the end it's the skill of the engineer (and the musician) that's most important..

A good engineer cannot make anything sound better that what it is. The only thing they can do is work best with what they have. Having quality equipment helps remove the boundaries that would other wise be in place with cheaper gear.

BTW, my monitors are NS10's , Sony G7 (very expensive hi end speakers from the late seventies) amped by a Harman Kardon Citation Sixteen, JBL TLX2, StudioDeSchop Climax, Westlake, Tannoy Arden, a number of home stereo's like JVC, Sony, Pioneer, Altec Lansing.


Headphones are Sennheiser HD580.

How's that?

I guess DJL really got to you with that monitor thing, huh?

 

[littledog]

A good engineer cannot make anything sound better that what it is. The only thing they can do is work best with what they have.

This is one of those "truisms"that have been floating around lately that I'm afraid is simply not true. Many times i am hired (as are other engineers) because the source material sounds like crap, and someone wants to make it sound better than "what it is."

The corollary to this popular sentiment is "you can't polish a turd". Again, if this was really true about half of the current top popular performers would be bussing tables or asking "do you want fries with that?"

Just look at the whole field of restoration as an example. The technology exists to take old source material full of scratches, clicks, dropouts, etc. and make an amazingly decent end product.

Same goes for the bag of tricks available to the mix engineer - autotune, sound replacer, beat detective, cutting and pasting, etc. Now, would it sound better if the original material was played and recorded well to begin with? Of course, no one is arguing that. But to say that an engineer can't vastly improve on what is originally submitted to the point where it "saves" the track is patently unture. It happens all the time. A skilled mixing job by a competent engineer can completely revitalize an almost worthless track. I know, because i do it all the time.

Now, I'd love to be in a position to only work with top talent, but that ain't the reality for some of us.

You can dismiss it as "turd polishing" if you wish, but if so, there are a lot more turd polishers out there making a decent living at it than the average person would ever suspect. I guess that begs the question: if a turd can be polished to the point where it is no longer a turd, than was it a turd to begin with? My answer is: go back to the original pre-mixed/mastered tracks and judge for yourself. You'd be surprised just how bad some of that pre-polished stuff can sound. (I could submit examples... man, could I ever submit examples. But I don't think I'm in the mood for professional suicide today.)

Sorry for the rant. But some of us in the trenches are doing the best we can with what we are given, and are actually occasionally even proud of our what our skills can accomplish and occasionally are even proud of the finished product.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Noisedude- See what you started? You make a serious statement, and it's like throwing chum to sharks! How 'bout them Patriots?-Richie

 

[rvdsm]

I guess that begs the question: if a turd can be polished to the point where it is no longer a turd, than was it a turd to begin with?

But some of us in the trenches are doing the best we can with what we are given, and are actually occasionally even proud of our what our skills can accomplish and occasionally are even proud of the finished product.

 

[rvdsm]

I had found this a number of years ago and I presently have it hung on my refrigerator as a daily reminder. It seemed appropriate to post it in this thread.

A Guide To A Happy Life

•No one will ever get out of this world alive. Resolve therefore to maintain a reasonable sense of values.

•Take care of yourself. Good health is everyone's major source of wealth. With out it, happiness is almost impossible.

•Resolve to be cheerful & helpful. People will repay you in kind.

•Avoid angry, abrasive persons. They are generally vengeful.

•Avoid zealots. They are generally humorless.

•Resolve to listen more and talk less. No one ever learns anything by talking.

•Be chary of giving advice. Wise men don't need it & fools won't heed it.

•Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving & tolerant of the weak & the wrong. Sometime in life you will have been all these.

•Do not equate money with success. There are many successful moneymakers who are miserable failures as human beings. What counts most about success is how a person achieves it.


By Lloyd Shearer Copyright 1989

Talk about taking the fun out of life!

 

[Dot]

•Be chary of giving advice. Wise men don't need it & fools won't heed it.

Ha! That whole list is ripping with nothing but advice. : )

Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook

 

[sk8ingsnowman]

i hear ya

i think part of the problem here is that some people are thinskinned or express themselves poorly in writing. or maybe they've got a really low budget and don't want to hear what some folks have to say about the various pieces in their signal chain (and maybe they're thinskinned too). no one running all beheringer gear wants to hear "all behringer gear is crap", regardless or whether or not it is.

however, if someone wants to upgrade something, they really need to look at the whole chain and the way everything interacts. and they need to understand that. it's not as simple as "i need a new mic", b/c you really might not--you might need a new pre instead, which may help MANY or ALL of your mics. who knows. when people ask for info, they should be willing to accept all opinions/views without getting pissed off about them and whether or not they have to answer follow-up questions. that's the only way to possibly dig deeper into an issue or determine which the best route is. getting advice goes both ways--you sometimes have to want to hear things you don't want to hear.

also, a lot of issues and arguments could be avoided if people would search before they post. for instance, when someone asks "what's the best mic for under $X", they could almost put that entire phrase in the search and get tons of hits. if people would just read the FAQ and check the newbie area (or heaven forbid lurk and read for a couple months) first, this would be a happier place.........

and part of it is that some folks have personal agendas and biases and can't get past them (or put them aside) long enough to talk level about gear. that just plain sucks. leave your agendas at home, we're tired of em (b/c we HEAR about em all the time). YES we all know that alan hyatt's business practices around here and some of his posts here were sketchy and sometimes quite unprofessional. AND we all also know that his company makes some decent mics available at a previously unheard of price. the product (in terms of the B1 and to some extents the vtb1) outshines the sleaze, IMO. you have a right to make your own mind up, but we're all really tired of the crusades.

especially when a product that could REALLY help a home recordist make better recordings is concerned. i'd love to use MD421's, 441's and Blues and Neumanns everywhere running into an API lunchbox rather than "resorting" to B1s and sm57s and 603s into a wackie, but that's not realistic for a lot of people. i know my gear, and i know its limitations. along those lines, the people who are running an sm57 into a soundblaster with no mic pre and are getting shitty results have no right to get pissed off when told "no kidding that it sounds like crap." there are fundamentals, and if you don't know em, you have no right to get pissed off when people more knowledgeable than you take a heavy hand in the mic or rack forum. that's why there's a newbie area.

to be honest, i'm glad this place isn't full of people like me, all working with wackies and sm57s and B1s and whatnot, b/c i'd never learn anything. that's why i'm glad we've got people with so much more experience around here. i WANT to hear about the gear i aspire to own while i'm working within my budget--it's small steps for me.....and i can completely understand why some of them have bad attitudes, too.

i mean, after only a year on this forum as a registered member (longer as an unregistered lurker), i too am painfully tired of seeing the same threads and arguments time and time again. my christmas wish for this forum is that if you have something postive or negative to add, please do so....but please do so in a mature fashion.


wade

I think part of the problem is that I was too lazy to read more then 5 1/2 words of this post

 

[noisedude]

Richie - yeah well ... maybe it proves my point ... I dunno now this thread has lost me a bit ...

I have to say I am leaning again towards Han's point of view. There's no need to back everything up with a quantified survey of 100 different band members from at least 5 different countries and specialising in all genres of popularly-recorded music...we know that much of what he's saying is true. So what if the monitors question got to him, it just proves my point again that if we were actually respectful ... even polite to each other, then the boards here would be way more productive than if we all spend our time dissing or making snide remarks.

I don't have a problem with DJL, but I do have a problem with his style. That much was true from arcaxis's post :
"Avoid angry, abrasive persons. They are generally vengeful."

Pass the Chum, anyone?

 

[Han]

I don't have any problem with anybody here. You'll see on any forum people talking their own thing, about what they have and why they have bought it, as if they wanna proove to themselves they'd make the right discisions.

Actually I like this place very much, I'm here for fun, to learn and to help where I can.

I have recorded more than 600 bands , choirs and orchestras, so I happen to know some about musicians I hope.

If we disagree about something, no problemo for me, as long as we don't offend eachother.

To some posts of some members I simply will not respond, for it will not add any value to a great thread like this one.

I will also not discuss the SP B1 any further, unless someone asks me to.

One thing though: http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=10283

Whish you all a merry X-mas and a peaceful 2004.

 

[DJL]

I don't have a problem with DJL, but I do have a problem with his style. That much was true from arcaxis's post :
"Avoid angry, abrasive persons. They are generally vengeful."

Well, get over it, learn to live with it, or put me on your block list... because, I'm going to tell it as I see it... even if you like it or not.

Han, I don't always agree with everyone on this message board... but, I do like this forum and I'm not pissed at anyone... not even those who flame me. Merry Christmas.

PS... the reason why I told him to ask about your monitoring system was because, I thought I remembered you saying in another thread that you only had headphones.... my mistake.

 

[noisedude]

I would of course expect you to tell it as you see it, regardless of who may or may not like it. My point was that you appear to have a lot of anger and of course that's not your fault and it's a shame. I'm not criticising you because my experience is that when I'm rude people being rude back doesn't help me.

Anyway, merry Christmas mate and everyone else, maybe we could have a competition for best re-arrangement/recording of a Christmas tune in the New Year!!