Maybe you should read this

  • Thread starter Thread starter noisedude
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good post richie

my only input to this whatever you want to call it is.
there is only one absolute. can you produce a good song ?
i see a lot of newbies so wrapped up in running 50 plug ins in a mix which possibly could sound better stripped back to fewer tracks and who spend so much time on agonising over minute equipment decisions and the fact they dont have abbey roads
equipment that they either dont have fun or never produce a final song. frankly i think you can get close to abbey road quality
particularly as in the early days the noise floors of their equipment were quite high compared to todays low noise inexpensive equipment. but the deal is you must know how to use it. ive heard superb songs done on tascam 38's.
i think eurythmics first hit was done on a tascam 8 track.
in an open space if i remember with not a lot of budget.
 
Well, Tduke, we'll be ready by January 31. It'll be worth the price of admission just to hear Littledog on the Hammond with a Leslie cab. And Manning- it was all done bone dry on 12 tracks, including the drum kit.-Richie
 
Richie, you da man!

I would be honoured to have your CD, because I'm absolutely certain it is made with love and passion.

And that's what it's all about, love, passion and dedication.

A $ 10k+ microphone can not add a gram of love to your music.

What a great thread this is!

I will be glad to explain the MS technique to ya.:D

Peace, Han
 
Could I ask a point of information? What is this 7th grade on drums, 8th grade on piano stuff? (Mentioned a couple of times on page one.) Is that some sort of British system? (Here in the USA being in 7th grade would mean you are about 12 years old, so I'm assuming this means something else..)

What about us "low class" musicians who never went to a conservatory, but have just been playing their instruments rather proficiently for 30 or 40 years? What grade would we be in?

(And by the way, just to be accurate, I never played a Hammond B3 with a Leslie on Richie's album. It was a simulation done on a Yamaha EX-5 synth. But thanks for the nice words anyway!)
 
I agree with everything on here and I'm glad, however accidentally, to have started a thread where everyone seems cheerful!

Richie, you're spot on. Nice one.

Chessrock, careful with what I meant. The actual quantifiable precentage difference between mic A (£150) and mic B (£1000) is tiny. I didn't mean there isn't a huge difference to an engineer with a bit of nous and a pair of trained ears, there is. But my point was, why even bother suggesting such a microphone to someone starting out when they 1: won't be able to hear/appreciate the difference, 2: afford it, and 3: know how to use it.

I think it's right that we should learn to make the most out of less, then we can really know the value of upgrading. By which I don't mean that newbs should all start out with two dictaphones and a toy keyboard, but that we shouldn't encourage people to waste, yes waste, their money on stuff we'd buy but will be of or no benefit over any amount of cheaper 'prosumer' stuff.
 
the whole world apart from the states pretty much goes by the grade system for musical proficency, which originated i believe from the royal school of music right here in the UK. it's a way of standardising ability so you know who's good and learners have something to aim for.

however, nowadays apart from the jazz syllabus and the drumkit exams it has nothing to offer the contemporary musician. so don't worry about it. many self-taught musicians can do stuff you'd never find a 'trained' musician being able to do. classical training is a burden i live with.

grade 8 takes about ten or eleven years to get to from scratch and at the time of the exam you are practising three pieces for at least two hours a day, in theory ;-)

the grade system is meaningless to you, and that's great. i only answered with my exam passes cos i was asked!!

btw it's conservatoire, not conservatory. you don't translate the word, it actually is the word. a conservatory is a glass room on the back of your house :-)
 
Well, Noisedude, I assure you on this side of "the pond", "conservatory" is the correct term, as in The New England Conservatory of Music. Furthermore, we reserve the right to pervert your quaint language in any way we wish, and that of the French as well. That's why Calais, Maine, rhymes with callous! As we know, this is an ancient British tradition as well.
As Henry V approached the site of his most famous battle, he asked his herald, "Milord Herald, what is the name of the village that lieth yonder?" The herald replied, "why your majesty, 'tis the village of Azincourt (azin-core). Henry replied, "Well godamn!
We'll call this here the battle of Agincort! They'll be talking about it for centuries." (just kidding)- Richie
 
First, I've been a member since Sept. 2001 and have 346 posts which is not very many for being a member for over 2 years now.I am on this site everyday and I read alot of posts and I post when I feel I have something to offer.Usually, I sit back and read and try to gain a little more knowledge than I had the day before.I often get frustrated when I see "what's the best mic for $$ dollars" or you can substitute the mic for "mic pre","sound card",
or any other piece of gear used for audio recording.There's is no cut and dry Best of anything for the money.If you asked me what's the best mic for under $1500.00 I'd say the U195.Why?
Because I own one and If my memory serves me correct I probably paid my mortgage late to aquire it.Is it the best mic for under $1500.00 not necessarily.It all depends on the source I'm recording,the room,what mic pre I'm going to use,what sound am I looking for,and I'd bet the humidity and room temperature has an effect on the mic on any given day,etc.There are so many variables literally it can drive you nuts.I would love to see the moderators put filters on this site to filter out "What's best" for
$$$.Trust me, I wish there was one product in any price category that is truly the best because I've literally spent thousands on gear trying to find the best of, just to end up selling it later.
About a year ago I decided to sell half of my mic collection so I could aquire 3 to 4 mics that truly did improve the sound quality of my recordings.I haven't looked back since...like the saying goes "you get what you pay for" and in audio recording that saying goes hand in hand.P.S My employer was kind enough to spend a good chunk of change to send me to Recording Institute of Detroit where I spent 2 years hands on learning the process of audio recording and that experience far outweighs any piece of gear.I'd also like to add no matter what budget you have by all means buy whatever you can so you can enjoy the art of recording,you can alway's upgrade later but as far as saying the average recordist won't hear the difference between mic A and mic B.Well, my clients can truly hear the difference between there last projects and there new ones due to my mic upgrades and really that's all that matters.
 
noisedude said:

the difference between an SP mic (and i deplore their marketing tactics as much as the next man) and one costing hundreds or thousands more is actually .... gasp .... very LITTLE.
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This is where you are very wrong... what you call "very little difference" is the very thing that makes a BIG DIFFERENCE in the end product... and all the (what you call) little differences all add up to make even a bigger difference. Just because one can't afford the high-end tools does not mean those tool are not a lot better.
 
No my dear friend, he's not very wrong. If I record a guitar amp with a Neumann M149 and a SP B1 and you listen to them in an A B test, I bet you won't hear much difference.

Only a very little difference in color.

It might even be possible that you prefer the sound of the B1.

The M149 will be the winner when recording a violin, but hey, it costs 50 times as much as the B1.
 
Yea, but take that M149 and record 24 tracks with it than take the B1 and record 24 tracks with it.Use the same preamp for both mics while tracking and when you mix the tracks down if you can't hear a major difference between them than I suggest going to radio shack and buy a bunch of mics.Trust me,I'm not dissing average recording gear (hell most of my shit is considered average compared to the pros) but to say there's not a substantial difference over several tracks combined during mixdown is ludacrous in my opinion.By all means buy what you can afford but I used to own a pair of GC octava mc012's and I used them on overheads and they did a decent job but I sold them and bought a pair of AT 4041's for approx. $70.00 more per mic and I'll tell ya the difference was astronimical.I couldn't believe how big of a difference that made and my client was in awe compared to his last cd.
 
Like DJL said, a little difference spread over several tracks makes a huge difference...
 
I'm afraid we don't agree very much on this one. I happen to have a very decent board, DDA AMR 44 in 24 out with great pre's.

I have tried a number of outboard pre's, very nice tube pre's as well, but there wasn't much difference in quality.

I track to a two inch machine and mix to a Studer 2 track or a Philips PRO 50 tube master machine.

I have a Neumann M149 and I can use almost any vintage hi end mic like U47, M49, M50, ELA M250/251 and many more, since a friend/fellow engineer collects vintage mics and rents them.

He has an ELA M 251 brand new in the box, not a new built Telefunken USA ELA M, but an original German one.

So, I happen to think I know how a good mic sounds, sorry.

I tell you guys again, there are Chinese mics these days that sound very good, I don't know how long they will sound good.
Maybe there will be a major problem within a couple of years with them, but they sure sound good.

Even when you record 128 tracks, the sound will be good.
 
Well , I noticed from your site you have alot of nice mics to choose from and I suppose once your using mics of that caliber there might not be a major difference over several tracks but in the real world of (home recording) from my experience I've found major differences fidelity wise with affordable condensers.I suppose using a elam v.s u67 over several tracks I'm quite sure either one is going to do more than acceptable over several tracks but to tell me a M149 v.s B1 or U67 v.s octava 012's your only going to hear a slight difference I just find that laughable.I hear major differences over a few drum tracks using 4041's v.s my late 012's.To be honest night and day differences.I can totally see where using a B1 might be more appropriate for a certain track/instrument but over several tracks when you have a decent mic cabinet in your arsenal I just can't see it.Certainly, the mics out there today are very useful and just about anybody can make due with them and make more than acceptable recordings with even the smallest budgets and I remember one post awhile back where someone said "my C1 sounds as good as a U87" yeah maybe for that particular instrument that day but across several tracks and several different recording situations give me a break.
 
Harley, I've never tried the Octava's, but there are many guys on the (pro)forums who say very good things about them.

There was a time not so long ago, when a really good microphone cost a small fortune. A top quality mic is still very expensive and that has a reason.

At Neumann, i've read somewhere, only one out of twenty capsules is found good enough.

Only one out of 100 tubes is found good enough for the M149.

But a while ago I got a couple of MXL tube mics from the pimp and I compared them to the Neumann, because this is the best mic I have.

The MXL V77 came pretty close to that German sound, a very nice mic. The V69 is more a vocal mic IMHO. Sounds more colored, bigger and very bright, but a very nice mic as well.

Actually I prefer a V77 over a TLM103.

My last purchase was a pair of SP B1's. After i had sold my two C1000's and my two C3000's, because I didn't use them any more.

This very cheap mic (B1) really surprised me for it sounds so much more acurate and neutral than the C1000/3000.

That is just great for homerecording isn't it?
 
Han, believe me I'm not trying to bash your B1's or anyone else's for that matter.For the price to performance ratio there's no doubt they're a great value.To be blessed with the gear that we have know days and for all of us to be able to sit here and debate what we like and don't like about recording gear was unheard of 30 yrs. ago unless you had a small fortune.Actually a large fortune....My most expensive mic in my arsenal is a soundelux u195,for the most part I love it except the shockmount
happens to be shit but otherwise it's great on most sources.I have no problem going to one of my 57's or any other mic if that's what it takes to get the sound I'm looking for and more importantly what my client is looking for.But back to the original point noisedude said "the difference between a SP mic and one costing thousands more is actually....gasp...very little".In some respects that may be true for price to performance ratio but Han are you saying go out and buy a bunch of B1's because your going to be wasting thousands of dollars if you buy several U87's or elam 251"s.Is your friend the mic collector wrong for spending thousands and he should of just bought a bunch of C1's or B1's?
I don't quite understand.From my experience, a small difference makes a huge difference over several tracks.The B1 is no doubt an excellent value but I highly doubt many people that own high priced condensers are going to sell there prized possesions to fill there mic lockers with several SP mics because...gasp..there's a very little difference.
 
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noisedude said:
why even bother suggesting such a microphone to someone starting out when they 1: won't be able to hear/appreciate the difference, 2: afford it, and 3: know how to use it.
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Well, then I'll throw a similar question right back at you: If you can't hear/appreciate the difference between a $200 and a $1,000 mic, then what makes you think you'll be able to realize the benefits of a $200 mic from a $150 one? And hence, why do people like you even bother asking?

I think that's a pretty legitimate question for me to ask, don't you?

But I know what you're going to say, already. Because you still want the best for your money, right? To which I'm going to say: "Then don't bother with a $200 or under mic, because once you finally do learn the differences between mics, you'll realize you wasted your money."

But maybe to you, $200 isn't a lot to waste, but I think it is. Especially when you consider that there are a ton of $300-500 mics out there that you could conceivably get a lifetime of great use out of (see: Shure SM7, AT 4033, 4040, 4047, etc. etc.). And if you can't afford an extra $100, then I'll tell you what I tell everyone else: Cut out 3 fast-food visits and stay home two extra evenings next month instead of going out with the fellas (or on a date or whatever). And buy the Busch Light instead of the Amstel or the Heineken. :D
 
Whew, what a thread.

noisedude's basically asking for respect for lower-end homers: "let's have a bit of respect all-round. it's what the human world is built on". Yeah, I'll go along with it.

Now, let's shift the focus slightly and talk about having some fun with really ignorant people. As lots of people have pointed out in this thread, people come around here with some really stupid assumptions and stupid questions. And it's fun to have fun in your response to that kind of ignorance sometimes (I love the 'try yoga' suggestion somebody mentioned earlier). But what about when the razzing is just outright insulting or vicious? Well, that reveals the rampant ignorance of the poster, right? And what do we do with really ignorant people? Have fun with 'em, right? Hold up their ignorance for a public laugh. Return the favor. But not viciously.

There are people who are ignorant of gear and technique and cost. And there are people who are ignorant of communication and respect.
 
chessrock said:
Well, then I'll throw a similar question right back at you: If you can't hear/appreciate the difference between a $200 and a $1,000 mic, then what makes you think you'll be able to realize the benefits of a $200 mic from a $150 one? And hence, why do people like you even bother asking?

I think that's a pretty legitimate question for me to ask, don't you?

But I know what you're going to say, already. Because you still want the best for your money, right? To which I'm going to say: "Then don't bother with a $200 or under mic, because once you finally do learn the differences between mics, you'll realize you wasted your money."

But maybe to you, $200 isn't a lot to waste, but I think it is. Especially when you consider that there are a ton of $300-500 mics out there that you could conceivably get a lifetime of great use out of (see: Shure SM7, AT 4033, 4040, 4047, etc. etc.). And if you can't afford an extra $100, then I'll tell you what I tell everyone else: Cut out 3 fast-food visits and stay home two extra evenings next month instead of going out with the fellas (or on a date or whatever). And buy the Busch Light instead of the Amstel or the Heineken. :D
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right then.

people like me? you don't even know who i am. i never said I couldn't tell the difference, but people who've played in bands and then want to record generally don't. my academic background is in physics and so i fully appreciate the scientific disciplines of identifying small discrepancies between tones and timbres. i can tell the difference, which is why i let myself be ridiculed by taking my senn dynamic to gigs rather than sing thru another dull sm58.

i was saying when someone comes on and goes "i'm in a band we've got my parents house for two days what equipment do we need" you can tell they're a bit of a muppet and so you don't need to sell expensive gear to them.

i think you're right to encourage hobbyists to save up. that's what i do. however, with the current example of SP mics i can have something for the cost of a couple of heavy nights out that will serve me in the meantime. no-one questions that they are great for the money, but obviously if you spend more you can get more if you know where to look - hence forums like this.

as for fast-food etc...i live off baked beans and water to pay for my expensive habits...i'm happy to suffer to save for my next purchase. my pocket only stretches so far and i know if i spend hundreds on one mic i'll be going ... "could have had that boss multi-fx for my guitar...and a new zildjian K 18" crash...not to mention some new strings and leads".

yeah i'm not perfect but i'd like to think i'm realistic and reasonable.
 
dobro said:
Whew, what a thread.

noisedude's basically asking for respect for lower-end homers: "let's have a bit of respect all-round. it's what the human world is built on". Yeah, I'll go along with it.

Now, let's shift the focus slightly and talk about having some fun with really ignorant people. As lots of people have pointed out in this thread, people come around here with some really stupid assumptions and stupid questions. And it's fun to have fun in your response to that kind of ignorance sometimes (I love the 'try yoga' suggestion somebody mentioned earlier). But what about when the razzing is just outright insulting or vicious? Well, that reveals the rampant ignorance of the poster, right? And what do we do with really ignorant people? Have fun with 'em, right? Hold up their ignorance for a public laugh. Return the favor. But not viciously.

There are people who are ignorant of gear and technique and cost. And there are people who are ignorant of communication and respect.
Click to expand...

nice one all round. this is what i originally meant. the idiot who flames the 'idiot' is by nature no better than the one he considers to be ignorant.

i'd rather be ignorant of gear and technique than communication and respect. reality check!
 
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