Looking for an 8 string guitar

[Superhuman]

I've got GAS and a chronic guitar habit I'm looking to add an 8 string electric to my collection. Any suggestions? The LGM Leviathon looks cool, I also saw a nice one by a UK guitar maker but can't remember the name...

Suggestions and recommendations are welcome.

Thanx!

 

[Sirnothingness]

Have many fucking fingers do you have?

 

[timthetortoise]

You don't need more fingers to play an 8 string. It allows more freedom in which octaves you want to use.

 

[muttley600]

A couple of questions spring to mind. How are you intending to string it? What tuning are you hopeing to use. Are you after "fanned frets"??. Eight string guitars are a bit of a beast and you need to be sure of how you intend to use it.

I've made 8 string guitars before but not often. They have always been made to a specific requirement.

 

[mikemorgan]

BC Rich has, or had an 8-string Artist series Robert Conti model that is kinda Telecaster meets Carvin-Holdsworth looking. It's a lovely looking plank, but I haven't seen one in person.

 

[Superhuman]

Have many fucking fingers do you have?

Won't be using it for playing traditional chords, just progressive heavy stuff. The extra two strings offer great kick for super low end riffs and really open up a lot more lead patterns. Check out Rusty Cooley for some 8 string solo action.

A couple of questions spring to mind. How are you intending to string it? What tuning are you hopeing to use. Are you after "fanned frets"??. Eight string guitars are a bit of a beast and you need to be sure of how you intend to use it.

I've made 8 string guitars before but not often. They have always been made to a specific requirement.

I was considering fanned frets because of the superior intonation values (so I've heard - if you know better let me know). I would stick with standard tuning from F# - B - E upwards, I know there are a number of options there but I think any other way would involve too much relearning on my part. I already have a 7 string but it's just like anything else, you always want to go one further. What's your opinion on fanned frets as opposed to regular? Are the fanned frets harder to navigate (they look pretty tightly bunched from about 18 to 24)?

 

[Sirnothingness]

It was supposed to be a joke. Oh, and thanks to the moron that neg repped me without signing.

 

[muttley600]

I'm not to sure about putting two extra bass strings on would be that easy. Your Low F# is going to be either very sloppy or quite a chunky string to get it to a decent tension. It may be OK but I'd want to check it. More normal on eight strings at least the few I've made have had a low B or C and a high A. Fanning the frets might help to get you the low bass your looking for. I've never been asked to do a low F# and if I was I'd look into the required string gauge before committing myself. If I have time I'll run the figures through a tension/gauge calculater in the workshop in the morning, I'm interested myself now!!

Your first port of call might be contact Novax Guitars who produce fan fret guitars and would know all the possible perms. As to playing fanned frets, I can't help you there my fingers are good a some things but are only just passable on a 25" 6 string.

 

[Light]

I was considering fanned frets because of the superior intonation values (so I've heard - if you know better let me know). I would stick with standard tuning from F# - B - E upwards, I know there are a number of options there but I think any other way would involve too much relearning on my part. I already have a 7 string but it's just like anything else, you always want to go one further. What's your opinion on fanned frets as opposed to regular? Are the fanned frets harder to navigate (they look pretty tightly bunched from about 18 to 24)?

Fanned frets won't help much with intonation as such, though they do allow you a slightly longer scale for those low strings which means you need less compensation (in relative terms), but it doesn't mean that the string will intonate any better.

I've only limited experience with them (I made myself an acoustic eight string some years ago, with two additional frets on the low end of the three bass strings, kind of like on the Kubiki X-Factor basses Stu Hamm used to play, but on three strings instead of just one). The big thing about them is tonal and ergonomic. The different scale lengths evens out the tension on the strings, so they are a little more even from string to string (at least, if you string it with the right strings). I had a fairly long talk about this with Ralph (Novax, who invented the whole idea) when I got my fingerboard from him (I normally make my own, but I couldn't think of any way to make one of those things right).

The main thing though is ergonomics. They are shockingly easy to get used to (or at least, I thought so), and really do make a difference. Personally, I would not want to play an eight string without it. It makes the hand fall in a very natural alignment with the frets at all areas of the fingerboard. Down low, when you hand wants to angled away from your body, the frets are just that. When you get closer to the center of the fingerboard and everything is lined up straighter, so are the frets. When you get way up high by the body, you hand naturally wants to angle towards your body a bit more, and the fingerboard lets you do so. However, the ergonomics of it kind put a limit on the tension and tonal issues, because any more of a difference between bass and treble scales than about 1" is very uncomfortable to play. An inch is a lot, but if you are going for a low f#, it might not be enough.

One other issue to think about. All those ergonomic issues are for guys who wear their guitars pretty high. If you wear your guitar on a really long strap (ala Adrian Belew), none of that geometry is going to work out the same way. Just something to keep in mind.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Ironklad Audio]

a topic about 8 string guitars, and no mention of meshuggah?

 

[Superhuman]

It was supposed to be a joke. Oh, and thanks to the moron that neg repped me without signing.

Wasn't me! Didnt take any offense!

 

[Superhuman]

Fanned frets won't help much with intonation as such, though they do allow you a slightly longer scale for those low strings which means you need less compensation (in relative terms), but it doesn't mean that the string will intonate any better.

I've only limited experience with them (I made myself an acoustic eight string some years ago, with two additional frets on the low end of the three bass strings, kind of like on the Kubiki X-Factor basses Stu Hamm used to play, but on three strings instead of just one). The big thing about them is tonal and ergonomic. The different scale lengths evens out the tension on the strings, so they are a little more even from string to string (at least, if you string it with the right strings). I had a fairly long talk about this with Ralph (Novax, who invented the whole idea) when I got my fingerboard from him (I normally make my own, but I couldn't think of any way to make one of those things right).

The main thing though is ergonomics. They are shockingly easy to get used to (or at least, I thought so), and really do make a difference. Personally, I would not want to play an eight string without it. It makes the hand fall in a very natural alignment with the frets at all areas of the fingerboard. Down low, when you hand wants to angled away from your body, the frets are just that. When you get closer to the center of the fingerboard and everything is lined up straighter, so are the frets. When you get way up high by the body, you hand naturally wants to angle towards your body a bit more, and the fingerboard lets you do so. However, the ergonomics of it kind put a limit on the tension and tonal issues, because any more of a difference between bass and treble scales than about 1" is very uncomfortable to play. An inch is a lot, but if you are going for a low f#, it might not be enough.

One other issue to think about. All those ergonomic issues are for guys who wear their guitars pretty high. If you wear your guitar on a really long strap (ala Adrian Belew), none of that geometry is going to work out the same way. Just something to keep in mind.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

+1 for info. As far as playing goes, I tend to hold my guitar pretty high - kind of like a jazz player so those ergonomically fanned frets could do the trick nicely. Reason I would be looking for the two lower end frets is for the extra heavy riffing capabilities ALA Meshugga and Rusty Cooley. I play a lot of lead/shred but am not really sold on the idea of an extra high string... I think I would prefer to back up lead with heavier rhythm sections - plus it will help a lot when adding midi to be able to go lower than B.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[muttley600]

Ralph (Novax, who invented the whole idea)

Not unless Ralph is ove 500 years old and was around when the Orpharion and Bandora were first concieved . See HERE and HERE. He has however applied the idea and made a comercial success of it were others before and since have failed. He's made a damn good job of it too.

 

[Light]

Not unless Ralph is ove 500 years old and was around when the Orpharion and Bandora were first concieved . See HERE and HERE. He has however applied the idea and made a comercial success of it were others before and since have failed. He's made a damn good job of it too.

Hmmmm, I hadn't seen those before.


That kind of puts Ralph's patents in a different light. (Something I always found rather annoying about Ralph. In general, guitar builders DON'T pattent stuff. We share. Certainly, most of us have come up with ideas which are just as good, even if not always as visible, but we don't pattent them. It's not good form).



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[chris-from-ky]

Conklin makes 8 strings. They're really pricey though.

 

[muttley600]

That kind of puts Ralph's patents in a different light. (Something I always found rather annoying about Ralph. In general, guitar builders DON'T pattent stuff. We share. Certainly, most of us have come up with ideas which are just as good, even if not always as visible, but we don't pattent them. It's not good form).

I had no idea he had applied for a patent. I was aware that he had registered the "fanned fret" trademark but that alone counts for nothing.

I've never met the guy but do remember reading some old articles in GAL some years ago. I have to say I found some of his reasoning dubious and some of the physics he quoted frankly wrong. I don't wish to knock the guy at all he has obviously made a success of promoting fanned frets and they suit some people. Heck thats why we build instruments of differing styles and types.

As to sharing ideas. I couldn't agree with you more. I've met alot of makers over the years from all over the world and almost to a man/women they share the same love for the craft as I do and are always happy to talk techniques and building processes.

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned there are no new ideas just different applications of old ones. Physics and material science is gonna have to make some big leaps before we can move air in more novel ways. Ralph Novaxs' rationale for the fanned fret is exactly the same as the originator of the Orpharion in that they are simply working with available materials to acheive an end. Until those materials are improved we are stuck with what we have. Incidently, the Bandora and Orpharion fell into decline as wound strings became more common and those bass notes could be acheived on shorter scale lengths.

 

[Light]

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned there are no new ideas just different applications of old ones. Physics and material science is gonna have to make some big leaps before we can move air in more novel ways. Ralph Novaxs' rationale for the fanned fret is exactly the same as the originator of the Orpharion in that they are simply working with available materials to acheive an end. Until those materials are improved we are stuck with what we have. Incidently, the Bandora and Orpharion fell into decline as wound strings became more common and those bass notes could be acheived on shorter scale lengths.

I don't know, I think that the Schneider/Kasha folks had some new ideas (I didn't say good, though I've played a couple of the prototypes Richard made for Gibson in the seventies that were very cool), and the guys doing the Nomex double tops are doing something which is certainly a new and interesting idea. I've not played any of their stuff yet, though I've seen some of them. I don't know if it is a good idea yet, but it is new and interesting. I also like Tom Ribbecke's Halflings are cool as hell, though that might be at least in part from his party at Healdsburg last year (lots of very fine Tequila, and Linda Manzer brought a shit load of very fine Cuban cigars).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

I think that kind of ilustrates my point to some degree.

I assume the Kasha instruments you speak of are the ones with the radical bracing or has something else slipped me by??? If so they are just new bracing ideas in many respects. I havent heard or examined many tho so I'm not in a real position to make a judgement. I'm sure they work efficiently which is the major claim made of the design.

The Novex double top interst me acoustically and are a rare example of modern materials and methods being applied to intrument making in a ground braking way. Very exciting and I wish I had more time to investigate the potential. It is still just "a differnt application of an older idea" borrowing from the aircraft industry in this case but using a unique material to instrument making. Trying to acheive that balance between stiffness and mass our holy grail..!!! It does present some interesting possibilities for the future.

The Halflings are fantastic I love them, but again just the marriage of two established ideas and wonderfully applied.

I'm primarily an archtop builder with a background in early fretted instruments and acheived similar results by building an archtop with a bent stave arched top in the way that the old viol makers of the 17th century did. I was surprised at the results and when I have more time I intend to pursue the idea. The method of belly construction is by no means new but I don't know of anyone one else who has applied it to the modern archtop. The idea just intrigued me!! It maximises the stiffness and grain in an archtop. No cutting through the grain. Boy did the finished guitar jump out at me when I stung it up.

Healdsburg.... Ahh the memories. I haven't been over for a few years but my lasting memories are sitting on the green at the end of the day, listening to great players play great instruments, in the company of great luthiers drinking fantastic local wines..Is it still like that?? What a place. Still my favorite show and I'd love to get back there some day soon.

 

[Light]

Healdsburg.... Ahh the memories. I haven't been over for a few years but my lasting memories are sitting on the green at the end of the day, listening to great players play great instruments, in the company of great luthiers drinking fantastic local wines..Is it still like that?? What a place. Still my favorite show and I'd love to get back there some day soon.

The last one was WAY too crowded. One person said to me, "no one sold anything because none of the customers could reach their back pockets for their wallets. It wasn't QUITE that bad, and our table was in a really fantastic position (at the end of one of the rows of tables, so the aisle in front of us was wider). It's not in Healdsberg anymore, of course, but the current building is quite nice. They say they are going to make sure it is not so crowded next year, but we'll see.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi