If you run out of gain mixing tracks , should you compress it for more volume?

Electric guitar is great now. The solo guitar sounds bad to me still though. I don't think you EQ'd that at all?

Ok, your other tracks sound like they are scooped drastically, high pass filtered too high and have top end boosts. To me, the electric rhythm guitar is the best sounding track in the whole mix now..... ironically. At least you know now that it's possible to work the rhythm guitar into it. Disable all your EQ's and compression etc, it might be easier to start over than to tweak what you already have. Make sure you keep your latest mix to A/B with, I will guarantee you will end up with something 10x better if you just start over, it's the best way to learn.

I think your limiter isn't catching the peaks. The other day I think I saw you took a screenshot of your limiter settings and the attack was set too slow. this needs to be as fast as possible, maybe even with lookahead if your Limiter has that function. and then play with the release setting. you will probably end up somewhere between 20ms and 80ms. I don't know, I use Waves L1 or L2 and it's automatic and much easier to use. If you do one day get around to learning how to bounce your EZdrummer down like a real drum kit, then the Snare can sound great with a lot of limiting, I'm not sure if limiting the whole drum bus will do you any favours whatsoever because those HH's and Crashes will probably go crazy out of control. So bear that in mind. Mixing is so much easier when you can go back to the individual tracks and treat them individually. Heavy saturation controls those peaks on drums, and is the secret to getting loud drums because unlike compression or limiting, saturation gives much more percieved clarity along with adding enough harmonic saturation to make the drums louder than even if the peaks were limited down to the same amount, it can also tame the HH's and Crash's while making your drums punchier. Compression probably isn't even needed as you wrote your drums in a sampler and I am going to guess there is not much dynamic variation anyway, if you use compression on the drum buss itself then you will want to be listening to the HH's because compression getting triggers by the Kick/Snare will give a groove to the HH's which is desireable sometimes, You would play with the release setting to control the amount of groove. But In all honesty, forget about what I just said and later on down the road maybe experiment. You need to concentrate on just EQ right now, get your mix to a good balance using that. Don't overload yourself with stuff to learn. EQ is where you are going wrong. Forget everything else honestly. You can actually get great mixes with EQ alone, Dave Pensado often sets challenges where he would try not to use any compression whatsoever in his mixes. It can be done. Automation is likely but EQ is the critical tool.

I'm not saying that compression isn't critical too, but... for now it's not.
 
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Farview

Well-known member
I agree, the distorted rhythm sound much better than it did. Now the mix is fuller sounding and the vocals aren't masked by the guitars. The solo is now really thin and screachy against the now warmer mix. (especially for something that sounds like it was played on the neck pickup) You might be able to get away with just making the 8k cut on that as well. If it's still too thin, do the same thing you did on the rhythms, just not as much.
 

mjbphotos

What?!?
It's easy to set up EZDrummer to send each drum (and overheads) to separate tracks in Reaper. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out why the snare and kick seem to all be at full volume when adding pieces, which is probably your problem. I have to go into each loop and pull down those volumes first thing every time. Once you get the individual drum volumes set in your mix, you probably won't need to add a limiter to them at all - EZD already had a limiter on them when they were recorded.
 

LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
Only the distortions guitars for verse and chorus were replaced. Yes, the mix is much thinner. I did nothing to make up for it. I was thinking about bringing up the bass guitar cause its quiet.The guitar has a significant amount of high end removed. More than you would think.

That solo is unchanged ...the last note or sound is the guitar being unplugged. I tried to do it in time with what the last note would be ..Bending to F# and then G. G is never played. Like a rocket shooting upwards and then exploding into a RUD. It didn't come out as artistic as planned. it will be replaced with the preamps EQ turned down on the high side.

vocals unchanged.
clean guitar unchanged.
bass unchanged.

Cymbals are hard too in ezdrummer. Usually quiet.

The mix sounds thin and quiet without the gigantic distortion on those guitars.

If anyone is counting that is the 36th render..
 
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Farview

Well-known member
It actually sound bigger with lower mids in the guitar, I don't get how you think it is thinner sounding. The solo is the only thing that hit me as completely out of place.

Just listen to what you have and balance it. Don't start adding more plug-ins, coming up with new parts, trying some secret technique from the internet that the pros don't want you to know about, look at the meters, etc... just balance the mix.

Start with the drums. Then add the bass. Work with those until they work together well enough for you to want to tap your foot to. Once the drum and bass work well together, add the clean guitar. Make that work with the drums and bass. Once that works, add the distorted guitars and bring them up until there is just enough. Add the vocals until they sit where you can hear them clearly but not too loud. Try to make the solo sit in the mix the same way the vocal does. It helps if the tone of the solo is somewhat close to the tone of the vocal.
 

LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
Got some time to record today. The guitars and bass were redone, and I turned the treble done on all my presets. The treble was turned up from when I was in the center of the room and moved the mics far away. I turned up the treble and presence in all the presets to compensate(didn't help). That was to get as much dynamics as possible I thought there was tone in the highs. Looks like not. The instruments in this mix are filtered 80-3k Hz or so.

EDIT- you know. Forget all that LUFs shit! Bunch a crap. Must a watched 10 videos on gain staging, rendering, and mixing to lufs.
I went back to the Oscope. With that tool I am able to make big waves.
Waves are a key to getting tone.

No fake keys, no lame vocal, no junk solo, just the instruments filtered 80-4k.
https://soundcloud.com/mark-c-746521042%2Foscoped
 
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LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
Is it normal to filter the distorted guitars 80-4k? Does that hurt the mix or muffle the guitar track?

Yeah, if I filter the tracks dynamically, I can get bigger waves. Louder without being louder.
 

TimOD

Member
I have all drums on a 'group' (folder) track, all instruments on another, and all vocals on a 3rd. Then sometimes, multiple instruments on their own sub-folder. Reducing those group faders makes it easy - you should not be mixing that hot anyway.
Exactly so. Separate buses for each group, with vocals on their own bus and backing vocals on another bus. You should never be running out of gain, so to speak--just drop down the other buses, and the vocals are in the mix higher.
 

TimOD

Member
Is it normal to filter the distorted guitars 80-4k? Does that hurt the mix or muffle the guitar track?

Yeah, if I filter the tracks dynamically, I can get bigger waves. Louder without being louder.
Depends on the track, the song. What do you mean by "filter" the distorted guitars at those fequencies? Do you mean across that whole range? A dip? I usually do not have any compression on heavily distorted guitars.
 

LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
Depends on the track, the song. What do you mean by "filter" the distorted guitars at those fequencies?
I am refering to the HPF and LPF as a filter set. 80-4k Hz. It would cut to infinity. No notches or shelfs. Otherwise flat. ReaEQ is used to filter.

No compression on the tracks. There is a JSMasterlimiter on the EZdrummer track set real fast. The tracks are pretty raw. I just dynamically shortened them , and set the level.
 
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Farview

Well-known member
Is it normal to filter the distorted guitars 80-4k? Does that hurt the mix or muffle the guitar track?

Yeah, if I filter the tracks dynamically, I can get bigger waves. Louder without being
It's more normal to high pass at 80hz than the low pass at 4k. Most cabinets don't put out a ton of stuff up there. Generally I end up boosting at around 8k and never low pass.

Here is the way eq works.
1. Listen to what it sounds like
2. Imagine what you want it to sound like
3. Set the eq to the difference between what it sounds like and what you want it to sound like.

It's really that simple. There is no magic eq that works on all guitars in all situations. It all always depends on what you start out with. Of course there is the thought that if you need to low pass at 4k, the guitar tone had way too much over 4k that you had to throw I all out, rather than just back it off with a shelf.
Technically, the more radical the eq you need to make it sound good, the farther away from the good the original sound was.
 

LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
if you need to low pass at 4k, the guitar tone had way too much over 4k that you had to throw I all out,
Am I really throwing it out? I'm taking the purest, most concentrated sections to layer into each other. The highs of the guitar meld into what would be the highs of the bass when layered. Ideally just the tone, no boom or hiss. The tool(Oscope) is used to find the biggest cleanest wave forms with the least artifact. The mix difference is undeniable. I think I'm correct , because if you bring rock songs into the DAW to Oscope, you see clear big waves. I haven been able to come close to that clarity until now.
 

rob aylestone

Well-known member
Laser - you've got fixated on seeing, not listening. You are using these tools and forgetting your ears. Can you try to mix with your eyes covered, or just stop the clever plugins and do what your ears tell you. You seem to have fundamental problems with the sound of your distortion - but all your treatment seems to be tweaking that kind of thing? The latest version with the chorus type modulation reveals tuning problems in that picked guitar which were hidden before and then the washy distorted guitar kind of flattens eerything, and of course the treated snare at the beginning now allows it's reverb to be listened to more clearly - and my humble opinion is it doesn't work?

You're doing the onion layers thing - working on things in each layer, then being surprised when they don't go back together again. Can you explain what on earth you are looking for? The cleanest waveform with the least artefact? I have no idea what you are doing? What are big clear waves?
 

LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
Can you explain what on earth you are looking for? The cleanest waveform with the least artefact? I have no idea what you are doing? What are big clear waves?
I make a mix. Use the SWS loudness tool. these are same section at -8lufs. I try to filter the track to clear up the wave. Then slightly increase its volume to cover the loss.

Starts like.
1.jpg
Start filtering
2.jpg
at about 100-3000 it melds with the bass
3.jpg

You want me to make video? My ears are in constant use. As are my tools.
 
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rob aylestone

Well-known member
That makes no sense at all.Why are you trying to clear up a wave? What is wrong with it? Why would you even want to see it? I'm not meaning to be funny - but I have never ever done this or had a need to? The representation of a waveform on a screen might show me distortion - but other than, what?
 

LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
Why would you even want to see it?
It is a visualization. In my life, the people who taught me used Oscilloscopes and Pecoscopes extensively. Intonation. Tuning.

Because nobody likes being blind. It provides a visual reference.

Why wouldn't you want to see it is the question..
 

Farview

Well-known member
You are trying to define what good sound looks like. That's like fixating on what a painting smells like or what literature tastes like.

If you ears were in use and not being overridden by what you are looking at, your mixes would sound good and you wouldn't be having all these problems.

You seem to enjoy music and sounds from the 80s and 90s. Please note that none of these tools were used in creating those albums. Most of the plug-ins you are using didn't exist even in hardware form at the time. You are constantly focusing on things that don't matter.
 
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