I wanna built a studio!HElp required

[11miles]

Hello to everyone! (especially those participating in the discussion)

I 've decided to get rid of my garage as a car box, with a roof, ad turn it into a production room.
I am not planning on recording live instruments, maybe a vocal here and there but mostly just demo material, you know a step before the real tracking and mixing would take place!
So i would like a place where i could focus on the arrangements, and all the other stuff production wise!

I do not have a billion$ to spend on high absorbed materials, microphones and FX !
But i know i will get there eventually.
SO my moto is to go slow at start and .....whatever.
I would tend to turn it into a bit of a listening room to!

First of all,
I just want to transfer my PC(Nuendo based) and my mediocre monitors from a desperate corner in the landry room to a production room to be!
Where to start?
For now, i have to work some extreme masonry. Build up the old 2-way doors, and build in a regular new one.

But then i need to know like a million things, which i dont and you do.
So please help me out.
I have a million questions.

Maybe the room size would be a good start to start our ''conversation''!
4,6m*2,6m*2,7m(height)
1-sound insolation. I would like to get some work down no matter if it's 2p.m or a.m. for that matter. I would sound proof. I know that complete isolation is more of a fairytale than a reality, money wise, but anyway,...
What would be the best way to get throuzugh cheap but still very effective.
I've read a few thousand of these threads here, but i still do not know for sure. LEtting some air space between two layers of insolation or not?
What is the best way to sound proof you room.
I do not want to disturb the neighbours!

2-quiet room. I dont think i want and woul eve nlike a dead sounding room,some of you would like to achieve. I need a good listening room, so i could hear all the frequencies, ...etc.
What's the best way? Carpets on the wall, acoustic foam(pyramids,...).

3. Angleed walls? DO i need them?

FOr now, this should be enough to get us going.

Please help me!!

I hope i can count on you!

 

[shutupandshave]

As you don't really want to record any instruments you are really just looking for a tracking/production room.

You will want to block out some of the outside sound, however you are going to need to change the shape of the room to achieve the acoustics you really need, so you can combine the two into one job.

I think you will be able to get a very good production room if you are willing to spend the time (either learning or just) knocking wooden frames together.

look at www.johnlsayers.com and find some control rooms in the studio plans. I believe this is what you are looking for from your garage. You will begin to get a feel for what is required.

In my limited experience you are going to need to build some wooden framework (filled with rockwool/insulation) to make your garage into a diamond shape. then you are going to need to make some bass traps and grab some foam for general fiddly bits, and voila, you have a decent tracking room.

Of course it's not that simple, but when you start considering the difficulty of the carpentry involved, you will get a feel for how complicated the rest of the project will be, and adapt.

 

[11miles]

Well. i looked through mr. Sayers blueprints already, but what i dont have is the space to fit in all the traps and insolation etc.
I am afraid i dont have the space to make it into a perfect listeining room.
First of all i would like to create an sound tight room!

SOmething my neighbout would not hear.
I dont know, should i do it with double wall or something similar?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

There's no shortcuts to studio construction -- you can't do it cheaply if you want to do it properly, so you have to decide on where your sonic compromises are going to be.......

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello 11 miles. First off, we can tell you how, but you need to give us lots of information to give you the best advice. Lets start here.

Existing construction and space. Double or single car garage. Try to post a drawing to scale of the garage, showing doors, windows, etc. Show the roof ridge with a dotted line. Give exact existing dimensions within 1/2". Show ceiling heights at front and rear of garage(to the bottom of the joists). Show part of adjacent room in house to see linear footage of common wall between house and garage.
Existing materials....i.e. Garage exterior roof and walls.
Interior of the garage:
Sloped concrete floor slab?
Unfinished walls with open stud work?
Unfinished ceiling with open joists to the roof?
Typical sheetrocked wall dividing garage from house?
Typical foundation at garage walls?(footing is wider than wall, which usually leaves about a 4"-6" high concrete step on the inside.
Typical garage door? Wood? Metal?
Exposed water heaters? HVAC? Ducting etc?
Anything unusual?
Distance to neighbors on either side. Type of neighborhood-street-Residential/country/city?
Existing noise floor(trains, trucks,aircraft, guns, dogs, etc)? Loud? Normal? Quiet?
Any rooms above garage?
What about the garage CAR door? Remove and frame wall to match house? Or build wall behind it as you CAN NOT use it as part of isolation.

Answer these things and I will try to help you.
fitZ

 

[11miles]

Okay i will try to anwer what you described Fitz, but let us go one step at a time.

A s i mentioned, first of i'll start with the concrete.
I will close the current garage door and put in a new door from inside the house.

The next thing is the electricity.
Any ideas, suggestions on how to work it out, so i have minimal interference from the light to monitors, ....

The first step is building as sound tight room as possible.
None of that expensive materials and suggestions about that, please.
The garage is next to our house with one wall connecting with the house.
Above is a patio of some sort, and the nearest neighbours bedroom is about 20ft.

So i dont need a lot, but still.
How should i cope with the problem.
Would building a 2 wall room help?

What with that idea about air being the best sound isolator?
I was thinking applying a gypsium plate on the wall all around the room. With some 1-2inch distance from the wall.
I would apply it on the metal construction, which would be tightened on the wall inluding some sort of rubber isolator, so the sound really can not move out of the room!

How stupid am i?

What would you suggest next?
Should i angle the plate, i heard 12 degrees is very good, but in my case, that is a whole lot, since the room is only 2,6metres wide, each side by 6 degress is still very noticable.

Shouls i leave the gypsium plates bare or aplyy the ''pyramid-foam'' over!

Is my stupidity increasing?



Please help me, as you can see i am propably asking a lot of very dumb questions.

Fitz, i will send the schematics of my room as soon as i write it down in an Autocad or something.

Until then please try something out without it.

Thanks

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I will close the current garage door and put in a new door from inside the house.

Okay i will try to anwer what you described Fitz, but let us go one step at a time.

Ok, but you still have to answer ALL my first set of questions before I can begin to help you.

For now, i have to work some extreme masonry. Build up the old 2-way doors, and build in a regular new one.

WHAT are you refering to as "extreme masonry and build up the old 2 way doors?

The first step is building as sound tight room as possible.

No, it is not. There are many things to do PRIOR to even pounding a nail. Understand this. Building even a simple listening room, REQUIRES planning, or your asking for trouble down the road. "After the fact" building and flying by the seat of your pants is for idiots. Don't be an idiot. I can't help you if you jump the gun here and do things that will negate isolation techniques that depend on step by step precision construction with attention to EVERY SINGLE DETAIL!!!
Understand this. There are only two ways to attenuate sound. MASS and DECOUPLING. To do it economically, you have to use techniques and materials that SUCCEED, or your wasting your money, and both of our time. Here is a little information.
IF you have a totally hermetically sealed room, and poke a 1/32" hole somewhere, you have now negated all you hard work. A 1/32" hole might as well be a 1/2" hole. Comprende? That means PAYING ATTENTION TO DETAILS.

Ok, now, if you want my help, answer what I asked to begin with. I MUST know what is EXISTING first. Then we can go from there. BTW, I am an AUTOCAD PROFESSIONAL DETAILER. Look at this. then you may understand where I am headed. I've tried to help other people, only to have them drop the ball after one or two posts. I don't mind helping, but I have NO TIME TO WASTE.

None of that expensive materials and suggestions about that, please.

What are you referring to as expensive? Like I said, you HAVE to spend some money on this, and the way to do it economically is KNOWING what works and what doesn't using standard building materials. Wood, sheetrock, insulation, wire, OSB or ply, rigid fiberglass, a little neoprene, a solid door and jamb, some joint compound and tape, and a lot of acoustical caulking. A few outlets, etc. The most important and expensive issue will be ventilation and HVAC. If you make a room hermetically "soundproof", you also make it "airproof", and I'm sure you want to breath, right?

The garage is next to our house with one wall connecting with the house.

What room is adjacent to the garage? The kitchen? BTW, is the laundry stuff(water,drains washer/dryer in the garage?

I will close the current garage door and put in a new door from inside the house.

Which door are you referring to? The door from the house, or the garage door for the car. I want to know about the "CAR" garage door.

Above is a patio of some sort, and the nearest neighbours bedroom is about 20ft.

Above WHAT? THE GARAGE? And the neighbors bedroom is 20 ft from what? 11miles, I can't read your mind, so imagine that you are trying to give me info to SAVE YOUR LIFE. If you need my help, don't make me guess. Tell me COMPLETELY what I need to know, or I can't help, ok. Now,

So i dont need a lot, but still.

No, you don't need a lot, but what you do need has to be correct, and the only way I know to give you correct information to build this within your budget, is knowning what I am dealing with. Understand? By the way, do you actually have a budget, or are you building this with whatever money you have as you get to each time you need materials? We can work it out by having a materials list, but in order to do that, I have to know where you are LOCATED. Sheetrock in some places are 10 times as expensive where I live. And it's not cheap here.

How should i cope with the problem.

What problem? You have many. Each requires it's own solution, but without knowing what I asked you, I can't even determine what problems you DO have Make sense?

Would building a 2 wall room help?

Yes, but now your talking in circles. You said don't speak of expensive materials. Double walls are expensive, so what do you want? Best, better, or "it'll do"?
THAT is exactly what I am trying to determine. Your needs, budget, skills, existing space, new space requirements, noise floor, interior db profile(how loud do you record or mix? 60db? 75db? 85db?)

What with that idea about air being the best sound isolator

Not on my planet. Air is a good conductor of sound waves. In fact, why do you think you hear sound? But what it does do is act as a spring in between sealed leafs of walls. Hence the use of insulation between studs to dampen and resist the movement of the air molecules between the leafs. Voila! Absorption. The greater the air gap(from the back of one leaf to the back of the opposite leaf) the better the transmission loss. But the total transmission loss at any given frequency range is still determined by other factors, which we can't determine till you tell me the stuff I asked you.

The next thing is the electricityAny ideas, suggestions on how to work it out, so i have minimal interference from the light to monitors, ....
.

Yea, if your using fluorescent lights. Otherwise, it's small stuff, don't worry about it now. BTW, what type of lights are you thinking about using in your NEW space? Another thing, computor monitors actually can be more of a concern under certain circumstances(single coil pickups on electric guitars for one).

was thinking applying a gypsium plate on the wall all around the room. With some 1-2inch distance from the wall.inluding some sort of rubber isolator, so the sound really can not move out of the room!

Your getting ahead of yourself. Forget the rubber. Wait till we analize exactly what you are dealing with first. THEN, apply solutions within your budget and sonic isolation realitys. Remember, to isolate a 20 hz sound at 90db, from a listener outside 10 ft away, would probably require a CONCRETE shell, at least 2 ft thick(guessing) or something akin to that. So lets get real, and figure out your limitations and compromise to it. Understand?
Ok, thats it for now, take each thing on my list, and answer it COMPLETELY, with as much detail as you can. I will come back tomorrow, and address the next step. Till then, try your hand at autocad, and if you need help, just ask.
I can even send you some files to help you. Here is an EXAMPLE .gif of some stuff.

fitZ

 

[mshilarious]

I think with the masonry he means replacing the existing garage door with a normal exterior door. I thus assume that all of the exterior walls are masonry? Like concrete block with a brick facade maybe?

If you have masonry exterior walls you can construct a 3" steel stud wall with a little insulated gap. If you have no windows, and build an entryway with two doors (a little airlock sort of thing), you should get pretty good sound reduction. I wouldn't worry too much beyond that since you're just mixing, which I assume is a reasonable volume like 85 dB.

Build a drywall ceiling and put a drop ceiling underneath that, and insulate above. The ceiling is the biggest sound leak in my studio, but I'm gonna work on that this winter. What is the construction of the patio above?

I think you'll end up with about 2.3mx3.5m inside with the new doors. If you are absolutely 100% sure that you will never track anything in the studio, and you just need a control room type of layout, well then you could try a very flat pentagon shape, but it's gonna be squishy. You're gonna need lots of absorption with bass traps in that little of a room so I'm not sure how much the shape matters. Maybe Ethan will help out here.

As for wiring use a single circuit for all audio outlets, lights on a separate circuit. Look up 'star grounding' for the audio outlets, although I haven't had a problem in my non-star grounded studio, even before I put everything in a rack on a single outlet.

Cables! Run all the audio cables you'll ever think you'll need! I wish I'd done this, but I've gotten pretty good at fishing them down the wall after the fact.

 

[11miles]

Thanks guys.
For now.

You really got me going on this one!

Fitz, just so you know i am from Europe, where materials are called a bit different than in US. So, we will need to to a bit more of explaining

Right now i am trying to get a hold of a friend who deals with autocad, once finished i'll put my problem on the thread!
And try to answer every Question.

About the money and the fund i have to waste?
About 2-3k$.
I not thats a change in comparisson to your MEGA studios, bzut still.
I need to get going first, then i'll upgrade and invest!

Okay, if its not the first step, the sound proofing, then lets consicer it among the important ones, oK?

Just yesterday i was writing some songs in my basement room, where i currently have a PC to do all my music stuff. It was past 10 p.m. and my grandpa couldn't sleep because of me!



Oh the thing abut the patio above it?


Well it more like a very big porch.
No laundry, water pipes or anything like it in it!
The only two holes i am planning to have are a window and a door.
A two way door - i was reffering to a garage door.

I still have to answer all the questions, i know and i will, but first i'll draw a plan of my garage with the sizes, etc...

Thanks for now,
this is going to get pretty interesting

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

this is going to get pretty interesting

To say the least, considering you are in Europe, and I'm on the other side of the planet

Tell you what, the most difficult thing to deal with for me, is the types of materials you have available to you. But we'll deal with it. For now, I have to hit the hay(slang for sleep ) I work at home in my cabinet shop, and have a big job right now. So, talk to you later tomorrow. One thing though, is my disclaimer. "I AM NOT AN EXPERT" at this stuff, but there are plenty of people who are that we can "call on". So hang in there and we will get this togeather....ONE STEP AT A TIME!
fitZ

Hey mshilarious

Build a drywall ceiling and put a drop ceiling underneath that, and insulate above. The ceiling is the biggest sound leak in my studio, but I'm gonna work on that this winter. What is the construction of the patio above?

Without knowing what his existing "roof/framing/ceiling is like, how do you know he can do what your suggesting. It might not even support the load. And what do you mean by "put a drop ceiling undernieth"? If you are refering to a grid "acoustical tile" type dropped ceiling, what for? They are useless and a waste of time and money in a studio environment. It is very easy to suggest things like "build" and "put", but unfortunately, they imply very simple concepts, when in reality, construction materials have weight, mass, thickness, length, width, limits, costs, installation requirements, skills, existing support, and mean very little unless you know what you are dealing with. It would be like me saying....."just toss up a concrete wall, no big deal I know you meant well, but for the sake of reality here, lets wait untill we know what is existing before we suggest things. Even the electrical issue. How the hell do you know what ground "IS" in his location. Europe uses a 240 50hz system. WAAAAAAAAY different than in the states. MUCH MORE DEADLY, although 120 will kill you just as quick Besides, codes may have something to say about it too. But that is a whole 'nother animal to deal with. Anyway, you have some good points. Let's just make sure that they work there.

fitZ

 

[mshilarious]

Hey mshilarious
Without knowing what his existing "roof/framing/ceiling is like, how do you know he can do what your suggesting. It might not even support the load. And what do you mean by "put a drop ceiling undernieth"? If you are refering to a grid "acoustical tile" type dropped ceiling, what for? They are useless and a waste of time and money in a studio environment.

Hey.

Well, if there's a patio above, there has to be some sort of structure. But basically I'm just throwing out ideas, the OP can figure out what is legal. If you want to create a set of blueprints, OK, but I'm not going that far. It's just that I mix & track in an 8'x11' studio, so I have a pretty good idea of how this is going to end up.

I don't agree with the drop ceiling being useless. In a large studio, yeah probably. But in a small one, you can use them to increase absorption by stuffing above with insulation to act as a bass trap. As for isolation, what is an insulated wall, like 8 dB better than an uninsulated one?

Beyond that, acoustic tile comes in many grades and the better stuff is essentially rigid fiberglass insulation, so it'll do the same thing as it does on the wall. And if you find you've got too much absorption, just swap out some of the tiles for reflective ones. It's very flexible. Heck, you can even do a groovy sloped ceiling without having to worry much about carpentry. Plus you can hang lights, run ventilation with baffles, run audio cable, etc. I find my drop ceiling quite useful.

As for wiring, yes the codes are probably different, thus I didn't recommend running a 120V 20A circuit with 12 gauge wire or whatever. However, the laws of physics are the same, so I assume circuits are somehow grounded . . . is star grounding legal in Europe? Don't know, but it's worth investigating.

 

[11miles]

I didn't want to wait my freind any longer and decided to drew it myself!

By hand.

DOnt laugh!
I forogot about the metric sistem.
The meassures are in cm not in inches.
1 cm=0,4 inch

Anyway this is a sketch that i hope will help you!
I am at work right now so i dont now if i will be able to answer all the questions but i'll try.
If not, when i get back home!

Hope this helps

 

[11miles]

About the sketches.
1 is from the 'air', and the other as you see it when you walk into it!

Hope it helps just a bit!

 

[hookiefree]

Cost Estimate

I don't want to hijack the thread but reading it made me wonder a couple things. Can anybody give me a loose price range on how much I'd need to convert my 2 car garage into a nice studio? I want 2 studios, control room and bathroom. The garage is basically a shell. Just a bunch of 2x4s and plywood with a concrete floor and electricity. It's completely detached from the house. The nearest neighbor is a good 50 feet away but i'd still like it to be as sound proof as possible. I live in the DC area. Again, I'm just looking for the roughest of estimates so I'll know what to work towards..

 

[mshilarious]

Where is the window? Does the top view show the patio? Is that the little box in the middle?

I thought this was a car park? I've got a Mini and I can't fit it through a 100cm door! If that's going to be the new door, then try to push it towards the back wall, that might give you enough room for a little slant on the side walls too. Also I would reverse the hinge location.

Are both the doors solid core exterior doors? US code would require that, if they are not I'd recommend it for sound control anyway.

OK, I can't do CAD, so this is ugly. All spacing is very approximate. The gray panels are fabric-covered fiberglass panels mounted a couple of inches off the walls (except for the one on the door). The monitors (red) are flush mounted in the walls. I'm not sure if there is enough room in the back corners for the bass trap, but I drew it anyway. You can also recess traps in the front walls, do a search on 'slot resonator'.

I still like the idea of a insulated sloped ceiling from 2m by the desk to 2.6m in the back. If nothing else, it will look cool. Lots of little lights in the ceiling, and some lights behind the wall panels would be extra cool.

Don't forget the lava lamp!

Cool site on wall construction:

http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE-14/teces_14.html

 

[mshilarious]

I don't want to hijack the thread but reading it made me wonder a couple things. Can anybody give me a loose price range on how much I'd need to convert my 2 car garage into a nice studio? I want 2 studios, control room and bathroom. The garage is basically a shell. Just a bunch of 2x4s and plywood with a concrete floor and electricity. It's completely detached from the house. The nearest neighbor is a good 50 feet away but i'd still like it to be as sound proof as possible. I live in the DC area. Again, I'm just looking for the roughest of estimates so I'll know what to work towards..

The lumber, insulation, drywall, & wiring is pretty cheap, what kills you are stuff like windows, doors, wood flooring, light fixtures, not to mention whatever you'll put in the bathroom. Not to mention labor, heh. Price the fixtures you want and add a grand or so.

 

[hookiefree]

The lumber, insulation, drywall, & wiring is pretty cheap, what kills you are stuff like windows, doors, wood flooring, light fixtures, not to mention whatever you'll put in the bathroom. Not to mention labor, heh. Price the fixtures you want and add a grand or so.

All I need is about a grand to buy all the materials for the walls and ceiling?? Then add the cost of flooring and toilet etc??? So I could feasibly do this for under $5K??????

 

[11miles]

Fitz-here are the answers!

As you could noticed, i posted a sketch of some sort.
Hope it helps understanding my situation.
If not, hope this answers do.
And on the first pic. the house is on the left side.

- The garage is next to a stairway, no room is next to it. YOu see the main entrances is one and through it you can either go to the interior of the house by stair way or through a second door to my studio 2 b!

- Existing materials....i.e. Garage exterior roof and walls.
For now, walls are from bricks with a finish. The roof is concrete, above is a porch!

- Sloped concrete floor slab?
Unfinished walls with open stud work?
Unfinished ceiling with open joists to the roof?

None of that really. Its just a normal unfinished wall and ceiling! The floor is only half way done. concrete and is hydroisolated.

- Typical foundation at garage walls?(footing is wider than wall, which usually leaves about a 4"-6" high concrete step on the inside.
Yes. The garage was built later than the house. Two foundations are the houses and two were added!

Typical garage door? Wood? Metal?
- Current two way garage door will be removed and replaced with a brick wall. All of it. A neew door will be inserted as shown in the sketch!

- Exposed water heaters? HVAC? Ducting etc?
What is HVAC? Anyway, i do nto have any appliances or nothing like that in. No water heaters no, drain pipes, nothing.NOTHING!

- Anything unusual?
Not really

Distance to neighbors on either side.
As mentioned the house is on the left of the garage. The nearest neighbour is 4m away!

Type of neighborhood-street-Residential/country/city?
Its a residental neighborhood.

Existing noise floor(trains, trucks,aircraft, guns, dogs, etc)? Loud? Normal?
Apart from my neighbours doing some ''chainsawing'' nothing really. One had a cat, but we fixed it

Quiet?
I think I would be the loudest part of my neighbourhood.
Preferably

Any rooms above garage? The porch. My mom does the laundry there!
The drying part that is!

What about the garage CAR door?
Aha...
Remove and frame wall to match house? Or build wall behind it as you CAN NOT use it as part of isolation.

As explained above, i will remove it completly and replace it with a brick wall.

As i looked through some threads, i've noticed that the house building in Europe is very different than in US. Builind a house with bricks is really the only way to do it!



Did i forgot anything?

Ask away!

And thanks or now!

 

[mshilarious]

All I need is about a grand to buy all the materials for the walls and ceiling?? Then add the cost of flooring and toilet etc??? So I could feasibly do this for under $5K??????

Well I rough estimated four new walls for a 14x20 space, plus a few partition walls inside, that's like 100 2x4s and 30 sheets of drywall which is about $400 or so, plus adhesive, nails, screws, mud, tape, wiring, boxes, outlets, so yeah it's a pretty rough estimate but not too far off, I'd think.

Yeah I would think you could manage $5K if you did all the work. But I'm guessing you're gonna sub out the plumbing and maybe the electric, so add a bit for that. If you don't already have rough in plumbing for the bathroom that would be a lot more.

Rick, I'm interested to see your studio design for the European garage. Quite honestly the interior door location threw me off a bit, I was thinking it was elsewhere.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

1 is from the 'air', and the other as you see it when you walk into it!

Ok, but I don't understand a few things. In order to communicate via drawings, we need a common set of terms. Here are a few we will use. A few Autocad tips too.

PLAN.... A view from the "air" is a PLAN view. Usually to show a buildings orientation on the property and other adjacent elements, such as streets, other buildings, orientation to NORTH, parking, etc. Usually in 1/8" scale. This usually is important to the Building Inspection Departments when applying for a permit to construct, remodel, demolish, or alter.
ELEVATION ...A horizontal view of the side of a building, or an interior wall such as you drew. Usually in 1/4" or 1/2" scale. On a computer monitor, you see the scale at what ever resolution you want. In reality, in Autocad, you draw at FULL SCALE . Then plot on paper to what ever scale you please. It is the dimensions text size and arrows that you must adjust to the scale.

SECTION.
PLAN SECTION. An example of a Plan Section is a floor plan. A floor plan is a cut section through a building about 4 feet(?meters) up from the floor. That way, the section goes through windows, doors, etc. Usually at 1/16th, 1/8th or 1/4" scale, depending on the size of the building or object. For smaller items, such as cabinetry or fixtures, or anything requiring it,

VERTICAL SECTION A vertical section is a cut section through a wall or building, on the short dimension of a room or building. Usually at 3/4, 1, or
1 1/2 scale.

LONGITUDINAL SECTION. A vertical section through the long dimension of a room, building or object. Same scales as Vertical Section.

DETAIL. An enlarged portion of a Plan, Elevation or Section, at greater scale, usually 3in=1' or FULL SCALE.

These are what we will use to communicate ideas and concepts. Here are some visual examples of each. This will take a few posts. Hang in there and I'll review your drawings and convert them to Autocad for your review and answers to questions. In the meantime, here is a site to familiarize yourself with studio design concepts:
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html