I need expert microphone help!!!!

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Kevin Allen

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hey,
been a while since i been on here. but i figured it was the place to go to find answers. i'm currently playing lead guitar for a great female singer/songwriter. the music is country, kinda traditional style.

here's the problem, mic's DO NOT pick her up. i need some recommendations. DONT tell me shure sm58, thats the WORST mic ever especially for her, bassy and muffled. she's not a quiet singer, she's not really that high pitched. just for some reason, mics dont pick her up. u can turn a mic wide open, it will pick up sounds from many feet away, and she can get in the mic and barely hear her.

currently we are using a Sennheiser mic. really clear, but cant get no volume. a rack mount EQ helps but i really have to peg out the 18k and 20k range, and also the 30 to 160 range. her mids pretty much around 4k.so most mics i've read about cut off the frequencies she's on...

i've been reading about the Electro Voice N/D367 for female vocals, anyone tried this mic and whats your thoughts on it.

just so u know, its not my knowledge in mixing or eq setting. i'm really good at that, and also, professionals in nashville had the same problems after i told them they would when trying to use SM 58's..

so yall give me some ideas of mics that will really amplify a female who is hard to mic???
 
question 1 - What about a preamp? which one you use?

question 2 - Do you need a mic for recording or you need that for live performances?
 
Id gather that it was live...since the other instruments were interfereing with her getting picked up...so I reccomended something that would have a more tight cardiod pattern.
 
live

yeah its for live performance. i mean preamp i dont think would help, the mics are picking up GREAT. just no her. so i need something with the range to reach the extreme high frequencies and the extreme lows, she's not high or low, but thats the EQ frequencies that actually make the mic function for her..but the EQ at the very top still is not enough, so i need a mic that already has those frequencies so i can work with it
 
The EV ND967 is by far the best EV stage vocal mic, but still colors the sound some.

You should try one of the handheld Heil stage mics, start with the PR20.

If that doesn't work, then I'd have to start looking at the singer, not the mic.
 
...

its not the singer. alot of the "club band musicians" say to modulate till shes singing hard enough to be picked up. she's not quiet. a singer shouldnt have to SCREAM into a mic. its traditional country, not screaming rock. she sings naturally, there has to be mics made to pick up natural vocals.

now, technique, sure, singers need it, but thats for when a mic is actually picking you up, u cant technique silence.
 
I've been using the AKG C100S for about ten years now for live vocals.
I swear it does half the work for me.
 
Can you use a condenser? The Shure Beta 87A is kind of meant for live - it's hypercardioid, so you can hopefully avoid feedback. I've got the Beta 87C (cardioid) - it's a lot flatter and more sensitive than the SM58.

edit: oops... you wanted expert advice - never mind :)
 
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Kevin Allen said:
here's the problem, mic's DO NOT pick her up.

.....she's not a quiet singer, she's not really that high pitched. just for some reason, mics dont pick her up. u can turn a mic wide open, it will pick up sounds from many feet away, and she can get in the mic and barely hear her.
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Kevin Allen said:
she's not quiet. a singer shouldnt have to SCREAM into a mic.......she sings naturally....
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I've used a lot of mics over the years, and still use several almost every Sunday running sound at church. No offense here, but I suggested re-checking the singer because I simply cannot make sense out of what you are saying. It is absolutely confounding that you can take different mics and pass them around to several different singers and all the mics dutifully pick up every singer......except one. It is mind boggling that you can set up one good mic and put several different singers in front of it and it picks up just fine for all of them......except one. My semi-amateur soundman brain and experiences cannot reconcile that kind of statement. Ocham's Razor would imply that the easiest explanation points to the singer, not the mics.

Should be interesting to learn what the explanation ends up being..... I'm stumped. :confused:
 
Kevin, I don't think the problem is the mic or the eq. There is no mic that will not pick up a singer. It may not be ideal, but it will work. I would look more at the rest of the system: the speakers, the tweeters, the speaker placement, the room and how everyone is accompanying her mostly.

Are the other players drowning out the singer - are they leaving her a space in the sound for her to sing in? Low snare drums go under a singer and are good. I like turning the stick around and using the butt on the head so it's fat and low. Get the guitarist or keyboardist to play between the vocal lines, not on top of them, and let the notes ring out so no one is playing chords on top of the singer,

Get a basic good sound with the eq flat. Don't use the eq to try and fix bad speakers. I almost always run my mic flat on a pa and use the controls on the mic. When I use eq, I rarely boost, almost always subtract. Using eq is like using salt when you cook - easy to go overboard.

I use a Senn 421 on stage, and I like that mic. I have SM58's and don't like them so much, but they are the standard gig mic and are ok as long as you don't eat them. Trouble is that on some gigs you need to eat your mic unfortunately.

Most of the girl singers I know use the better $300+ Senn mics for gigs. The cheap Sennheisers I've heard weren't happening.

I had lots of trouble with SM58's on stage, like what you describe.
 
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dintymoore said:
Kevin, I don't think the problem is the mic or the eq. There is no mic that will not pick up a singer. .
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Unless if she is a vampire or something.:confused:

The EV 967 was mentioned above...I got a EV 367nd in a suitcase of mics I bought for $125...Id estimate it costed me about $7
 
...

dintymoore,
the mics pick her up, just dont "amplify" like everyone else, she's way off in the background like u got her barely turned on. makes it basically impossible to play anything live except for accoustic without drums. and the accoustics unplugged.

i have checked everything, i know speakers,PA, and everything factors in. and instruments can easily drown out a singer. what i'm say is, the farther she gets from the mic, the less she is heard, "eating" the mic, is the only way to hear her, and u still cant get her over a set of acoustic drums, and the drummer is NOT a hard playing drummer.

i've talked to several mic company techs and all say that each mic has a "Frequency Curve". the area that is most sensitive to the mic, they said where it drops off on the lows and highs is what it is NOT picking up. well from what i've figured by trying different mics, the mics that go farther into the lows and higher into the highs do better, but still not quite...

thats why i was looking at the Electro Voice N/D367 because of it's range and increased frequency sensitivity. someone on this post did recommend the 767 version.

this problem has puzzled me and anyone who's tried to fix it. the only explanation is finding a mic that has a super wide frequency curve.

anyway, im gonna check on all these suggestions thats been said on here. but she's definately worth the effort, she has a GREAT voice and GREAT songs.

by the way, someone recommended the Shure SM87A, i've even looked at that one also.
 
I've been running live sound for many years. Most average mics will indeed pick up any singer if it is dialed in correctly. Granted, if the band is loud, she will have to keep her lips against the mic ball while she sings, (except for during her loudest phrases.) Tell her to get used to it.

A mic with a wider frequency response will not help very much. Human vocals contain frequencies mainly between 300 and 8000 Hz. If you cannot hear those frequencies coming from her mic then you need to step away from the mixer and let someone who has more skill take over.

Like Dinty says...your PA may not be adequate. It may not be set up properly. The speakers may be too close to her. A horn could be blown. It could be a gain structure thing. The list goes on...

Also a properly set compressor will bring out even whispers well above the band.
 
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Another thought i had was that the board or power amp has zero headroom.
 
Yeah, this whole thread sounds bogus. Either turn up her channel or turn down the band. What kind of mic won't pick up a singer unless there are other problems in the signal chain?

I call shenanigans.

wtf?

Kevin who with all the experience?

:confused:
 
No problem. If you are in smaller venues, and can use a condenser-Neumann KMS105- the high priced spread. If you need a dynamic, AKG D3800 tripower. I've run into the problem you are trying to describe, and I'm betting either of the mics above will address the problem. . I've come across this when the singer has good bass and/or treble overtones, and simply lacks the midrange that the vocal mic is trying to boost. Because it's a female singer, I doubt she is producing a lot of low frequency overtones. It's not the carrier frequency- her A440 is the same as everybody elses. It's the high frequency overtones that don't get picked up because high end definition is not the strong suit of most stage vocal mics.
It's like classic Joni Mitchell. The notes she's singing are low, she's an alto. But her high frequency overtones are very complex, so she sounds like a soprano even when singing alto notes. You need good mics that can reproduce a lot of high end detail, without high-end hype. In the studio, she is likely to sound real good through an AKG C414.-Richie
 
The SM58 is a rock solid stage mic, but a great vocal mic, it ain't, even in live use. Particularly with female singers, the proximity effect of the 58 can be unflattering and makes the singer sound muddy.

Some singers don't cut through as well with certain mics. If she's an alto, try giving her a mic with a little more of a presence peak (possibly in a different place, with peaks at or near where her formant region lies or an even multiple thereof) to get a little more bite. If she's a soprano, try a condenser with an open top end so you can hear all the overtones. Heck, either way, try a condenser.

You might even consider a head-mounted condenser like Britney Spears uses. That way, you're guaranteed to have good, *consistent* mic placement. This makes it much easier to get the EQ just right for a given person's voice.
 
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