how to compose songs?

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Toddskins said:
Another immature statement.


Whether or not somebody can or cannot pick up an instrument and play it, let alone compose music on it, does not disqualify a person from being able to critique what they hear.

Thousands upon thousands would elect to sit in on one composer's concert in deference to another's. During the classical era, as an example, people had a much higher acumen for music than today's generation. Nevertheless, people can analyze music without being able to play, or write.

The discussion surrounding the OP's question was all good until the young kids, some acting like bully's, got into it.

Does it ever stop?
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You're as ignorant as they come. This thread started going downhill when someone called someone else a "cancer" on music, etc....

And if you want to talk about "cancer", your pretentious and un-called-for snobbery makes you a cancer as far as human beings go. You and your friend "Mr. Honest" have done more "bullying" and insulting in this thread than anyone else. But, of course you can't see that through the cloud of ignorance and arrogance that suffocates you.

You're pathetic........Post some music, assholes.
 
I'd like to go ahead and point out that I'm the cancer of music. Says so right in my name. :D
Got to agree with Greg and RAMI on this one. Toddskins, it makes you sound like an arrogant douche when you write:
Toddskins said:
I'll tell you one last thought on this - There have been several people over the years that I have taken the time to demonstrate music to, both in my own writing and by introducing older music to them that they had never heard, and ... and this is a biggie... taking the time to point out the flaws in the music that they liked. What is most satisfying is how these people come back weeks or months later with new love for music and each has in turn confessed that what they used to like, they now hate.

As I reflect on these times, I always say that all it took was someone who actually cared and was in the know... to teach them.

Nothing is more satisfying than when students of music take the time to learn from somebody they esteem as better. Very seldom happens, but when it does, it makes it all worthwhile.
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There is no right or wrong in matters of taste. While I'm sure there probably isn't anybody on this board who hasn't had the realization that a lot of the stuff that's released today is pretty formulaic, dull, and generally crappy, it's popular because a whole lot of people like it. Those of us who don't can try and make something different that we hope some of the people will like some of the time, or we can, as Toddskins appears to have done, set out on a crusade to ruin otherwise unconcerned peoples good times. You point out the flaws in the music they love and are gratified when they start to hate it? You must be great at a party.
Seriously, reading that made me think your interactions with people must go like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCumH8LRo1A
And Greg, Toddskins did post a song. Wasn't my cup of tea, but then, I probably just need him to teach me about why the music I like is bad.:p
 
The Cancers said:
And Greg, Toddskins did post a song. Wasn't my cup of tea, but then, I probably just need him to teach me about why the music I like is bad.:p
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Um yeah, I just heard it. That has to be a joke, right? That shit can't be serious. If it is, he really should shut the fuck up now and/or never again comment about songwriting.
 
I listened to it as well. It was "interesting", in the way that Broadway show tunes are "interesting".

I truly believe Toddskins and Mr. Honesty are the same person, judging by their writing style in their posts. That would make Mr. Honesty not very honest, now wouldn't it?
 
What's all this stuff with The Beatles. Most of their songs are pretty basic, and catchy because of that. A lot of the singing is basically 'yeah yeah yeah.' Kids dig their songs - some songs are really made for the kids.
As for Wings - well, I remember Band on the Run, but that was just a song out of so many other artists, what highlights that to be one in a million? It isn't one in a million, it's because of McCartney himself, not the song.

So, I'll leave you with this:

She loves you
yeah yeah yeah
She loves you
yeah yeah yeah
She loves you
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
 
nzausrec, I hope that was tongue-in-cheek!

The Beatles did a lot more than "yeah yeah yeah"!!

How can you say Come Together, Here Comes The Sun, Norwegian Wood, Michelle, Because, I Want You (She's So Heavy), I Am The Walrus, Strawberry Fields Forever, Penny Lane, etc etc etc even begin to fit into that template?? ;)

The Beatles were not only inventive, they were groundbreaking, and they forced pop music to change instead of going along with what was current.

All IMHO.
 
The Beatles put themselves on the map by writing simple, catchy, hook filled pop songs and being cute. Their early stuff was not avant-garde. In fact, I'd say the Beatles rise to fame is right in line with my points in this very thread.

Greg = Beatles. :D
 
& it goes like this...

Paul: Well I think we ought to alter the cadence and bring in dimished progression to heighten the denourment.
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul: The third verse should have a short derivitive of the contrapuntal variation that Lizt essayed in his more mature work...
John: Yeah yeah yeah
Paul: John, what's in this tea - I denote a new level of synesthesia that has opened up a renewed thirst for blandishments & spousal co-authorship
John: Paul, that's it, go & form Wings with some Septic and raise MOR to a new LESS.
In the beginning Beatle John & Beatle Paul wrote derivative pop. They drew from superb sources and did it brilliantly. They later experimented, having cemented their fortuned and fan base. Such is the history of Rock as opposed to Rock n Roll.
Now, let's pause for a moment while I condenscend to inform you of the poorer elements of the music you cherish - let me, every so generously, rip away the things that have given you comfort and joy. I'll expose them for what they are: things I couldn't do! You'll thank me & return to me renewed with a contempt for your former life and the trappings of music d'jour.
Sounds like some people are living in an Edwardian world of mannered English upper class paternalism but don't know it!
No? Who, Moi?
 
I heard Barry Gibb of the Bee Gees say that he gets songs in flashes, where in an instance he gets a groove, the basic thing of the song, maybe some words etc... and that wrung a bell with me because I do it like that... it feels like I'm not even responsible for it, like I am a channel for it to happen, and I'm sure many people are like this. That's the inspiration part.

But actually getting it into a song is another thing that requires craftsmanship.

The fastest way I know to get that is to figure out and even write out songs by the great songwriters. My favorites are Lennon/McCartney, Boz Scaggs, Ray Davies, George Harrison, The Bee Gees, Neil Young, Duke Ellington, John Fogherty, Stevie Wonder, Gershwin, Burt Bacharach, Jimi Hendrix, Carol King, Dozier & Holland... and I'm sure you have yours.

If you transcribe a bunch of songs I imagine you'd learn a lot... it takes away the mystery of how the song was put together... best way I know.
 
nzausrec said:
What's all this stuff with The Beatles. Most of their songs are pretty basic, and catchy because of that. A lot of the singing is basically 'yeah yeah yeah.' Kids dig their songs - some songs are really made for the kids.
As for Wings - well, I remember Band on the Run, but that was just a song out of so many other artists, what highlights that to be one in a million? It isn't one in a million, it's because of McCartney himself, not the song.

So, I'll leave you with this:

She loves you
yeah yeah yeah
She loves you
yeah yeah yeah
She loves you
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
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Another thing to add to the other posts, is that the Beatles were the first to do that sort of thing. So they had the "New" element" going for them as well.
 
The thing is, Beatles took all the tunes out of the air and produced them, so there really is very little left. I mean, come on, those Beatles tunes would have already been made by now by other artists - they are sooo elementary.

As for the sound quality, Gads: crackle crackle, twang twang.
 
nzausrec said:
The thing is, Beatles took all the tunes out of the air and produced them, so there really is very little left. I mean, come on, those Beatles tunes would have already been made by now by other artists - they are sooo elementary.

As for the sound quality, Gads: crackle crackle, twang twang.
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I think you just don't know what you're talking about.

The song you referenced, "She Loves You," contains not only an augmented chord, but also a minor 6th chord, neither of which occur in diatonic harmony. For 1963, in pop music, that certainly wasn't "soooo elementary."

Granted, the lyrics aren't astounding, but they're perfectly good pop song lyrics that tell a good story.
 
haha shitt y's everyone gotta be so hostile,
i have to say i agree with all of you, i do feel that u can sit down and throw something together, it might not sound the best, but too anyone who made it themselfs its gold, its THERES. just do what comes naturally, after a bit you'll get the hang of it and be able to start doing more complex bits and than after a while you could have some of the most technical pieces out tehre, i also agree that alot of good music is simple, listen to most of the verses in all the late 70s and 80s music the only complex paarts are the chorus and the solo's. just do what your confortable with and it will come, just need patience, and if u don't have that, than maybe consider taking classes?
 
If I "try" to write a song it comes out like crap.

Since I was about 12 I've had flashes, where in an instance I'll hear a song in my head. I usually do this best when I'm away from my musical instruments, like when I'm working on my car. I work on these songs in my head while I work, sometimes for decades. If they're good enough, I'll record them in my studio.

When I write stuff at my keyboard I tend to do the same old chord patterns in the same ol' keys by muscular memory and it sounds contrived.

Technically the way I've learned the most about songs is by transcribing, if you want to get the nuts and bolts of music I know of nothing better.
 
dintymoore said:
If I "try" to write a song it comes out like crap.

Since I was about 12 I've had flashes, where in an instance I'll hear a song in my head. I usually do this best when I'm away from my musical instruments, like when I'm working on my car. I work on these songs in my head while I work, sometimes for decades. If they're good enough, I'll record them in my studio.

When I write stuff at my keyboard I tend to do the same old chord patterns in the same ol' keys by muscular memory and it sounds contrived.

Technically the way I've learned the most about songs is by transcribing, if you want to get the nuts and bolts of music I know of nothing better.
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EXACTLY inspiration comes too you. you can't make it happen, you hear of writers block? its cause there trying too hard. iv been writing for about 7 years and iv maybe came out with 1 or 2 good songs just by sitting there, just chill have a beer maybe smoke one and it will come
 
Well, there's 2 types of songs:

1) contrived, where you say "gee wouldn't it be nice to have a fast dance song... hmm... Cm is a good chord, let's find a bass lick

and

2) inspired, where it just "comes out of nowhere"

You can come up with good stuff either way, but it's my guess that all the great music comes from being inspired.

Just listen to the radio, and you can tell instantly which songs are contrived (most) and which are inspired.

In general, the contrived songs don't really do it, but anything's possible and there's no rules.
 
simoneau10 said:
EXACTLY inspiration comes too you. you can't make it happen, you hear of writers block? its cause there trying too hard. iv been writing for about 7 years and iv maybe came out with 1 or 2 good songs just by sitting there, just chill have a beer maybe smoke one and it will come
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So let me get this straight. Your proof in the pudding for the "inspiration comes to you" method is that you've written 1 or 2 good songs in 7 years?

....

..

....... and that's a good method? :confused:
 
Just a couple of random thoughts.. Depending on what type of music you are interested in....Stop trying to compose a song and just write one. Anyone can do it. You aren't taking over the world. You don't need a well thought out plan. Pick a few chords, play them in any order, and every order until you find something you like, find a rhythm, start singing sounds(don't worry about words at this point), just play vocally with different sounds, when you get into the groove of the song start making up lyrics, they don't have to be genius, anything will do, if you happen upon a lyric that you like write it down, but keep playing until you don't need to play it anymore to hear it in your head, then stop. Go out and live your life. And pay attention. This is an awesome world. Relate every conversation that you hear to your song and remember the good lines. Use them. People like for a song to have a context. Create one. Describe a landscape in detail. Make up some names for characters and give them a role. But really, just write stuff down. Everyday write stuff down that you find intersting. Every good writer has a cabinet full of scraps of paper with sentences and phrases and words and ideas. Write everyday.

There are a thousand and twelve ways to write a song. But trying to create one out of loops and fills and riffs and half recorded parts may be the hardest.
 
The Bottom Line

Tons of people on here are putting too much thought into this and many aren't putting enough. We have a lot of differences of opinions here. Many are suggesting a long, thought out, complex style of composition and songwriting. That's awesome if that's how you work/what you do. Others are saying just do what you feel and keep it simple. If that's what butters your bread, then go for it. I suggest a combo of the 2. Go with a little of both. Maybe more of 1 on some songs and more of the others on another song. Only you can really decide what will work for you.
 
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