K
kurth
Member
wasn't that you talking about every instrument has it's limitations?
rob aylestone
Moderator
I totally get how some people would be at home with this kind of music making, but I can't imagine swapping a music keyboard for a pad based solution.
HumanPlanet
_R*A*F_
This video perfectly shows the limitations of trying to get anywhere near a realistic sound from an ipad based instrument.
rob aylestone
Moderator
Phew! I thought it was just me. These things are great for triggering and manipulating sounds, but i dont quite see the point of them over the usual ways of playing music, which are those black and white slatted things you prod.
K
kurth
Member
Human...I disagree. Maybe he's not ravi shankar, but he ripping her.
Rob....I agree. I love keyboards. It's a beautiful system. However isomorphic keyboards allow things that regular keyboards don't. Like different scales and similar chord forms all across the board. As well, they give a person a different systemic way of seeing & playing the notes. Yes I know keyboards have attempted to implement those things to lesser success. I'd love to own a linnstrument, however I wouldn't want it as a primary keyboard. There's a new isomorphic controller called Exquis that's cool. Also there's a transparent textured surface for ipads that allows for more dexterity. If anyone is more interested, Loopy Pro forum which was audiobus, has alot of info, and players.
Rob....I agree. I love keyboards. It's a beautiful system. However isomorphic keyboards allow things that regular keyboards don't. Like different scales and similar chord forms all across the board. As well, they give a person a different systemic way of seeing & playing the notes. Yes I know keyboards have attempted to implement those things to lesser success. I'd love to own a linnstrument, however I wouldn't want it as a primary keyboard. There's a new isomorphic controller called Exquis that's cool. Also there's a transparent textured surface for ipads that allows for more dexterity. If anyone is more interested, Loopy Pro forum which was audiobus, has alot of info, and players.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I suppose these things are just like harpejji type instruments where you play patterns left right but also up and down.
So far my Youtubing of these pad type surfaces has left me a bit lacking in real playing with feeling - all a bit robotic and unmusical.
So far my Youtubing of these pad type surfaces has left me a bit lacking in real playing with feeling - all a bit robotic and unmusical.
HumanPlanet
_R*A*F_
rob aylestone
Moderator
Musical prowess is easy to spot in any genre, even ones you have no real knowledge of. You can play music at so many levels. Sometimes, some gizmos try to sell themselves on their ability to make wonderful music from lower ability. They rarely do.
K
kurth
Member
Rob...this guy might disagree....
Human....do you play any indian instrument? I've got a 21? string sitar, full size, double gourd. It was even beyond george harrison, if that's how you're comparing apples to grapes. It's a hard instrument. There's two ways. You can spend your whole life mastering one instrument. Or you can play alot of types of instruments somewhat ok. I think the second option is far more interesting.
I think you can make music with wooden flutes and stretched skins.
Human....do you play any indian instrument? I've got a 21? string sitar, full size, double gourd. It was even beyond george harrison, if that's how you're comparing apples to grapes. It's a hard instrument. There's two ways. You can spend your whole life mastering one instrument. Or you can play alot of types of instruments somewhat ok. I think the second option is far more interesting.
I think you can make music with wooden flutes and stretched skins.
HumanPlanet
_R*A*F_
I'm sorry kurth but I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
Many are.
My opinion is there are more than just those two ways.
I agree.
rob aylestone
Moderator
No I'm sorry but this is chalk and cheese. He's a competent pianist, but suffers those horrible sounds from the pad. every time he goes back to the real synth, it's sound blows the pad's sounds out of the water. He clearly is very used to the playing surface, but what he produces is simply horrible. In the middle he went off on the keys and that was so much better. Everything he played on the pad was musically less good. Clearly, it's not his musical ability - I just dont see why he didn't pick anyother synth (and I bet he has plenty) and play his top line on that rather than make those bontempi warbles. A violin that sounded ultra synthetic and a flute that sounded like a baroque/ethnic flute if such a thing would have existed. Playing a bunch of sounds in a pad with a unique playing interface results in totally new (and in my humble opinion) dreadful sounds. If you have a wonderful sitar, then if you have mastered it, would you swap it for a mangled non-sitar sound from an ipad?
My view is a simple one. If you want authentic sounds, then a really good sample package, lots of effort and good musical keyboard skills are the best way. I concede that if you want processed vaguely strings or vaguely brassy sounds, any of the alternative 'exciters' will do the job. Roland and others have had matrix style, programmable playing surfaces for a fair time now - but the sounds in that video were great from the synth and terrible from the pad - I have no knowledge if that is a limitation of the geoshred/synth apps and surfaces - but why a talented guy like that makes such rotten sounds is beyond me - or perhaps I have missed something vital. I thought it made him sound a poorer musician that he actually is.
My view is a simple one. If you want authentic sounds, then a really good sample package, lots of effort and good musical keyboard skills are the best way. I concede that if you want processed vaguely strings or vaguely brassy sounds, any of the alternative 'exciters' will do the job. Roland and others have had matrix style, programmable playing surfaces for a fair time now - but the sounds in that video were great from the synth and terrible from the pad - I have no knowledge if that is a limitation of the geoshred/synth apps and surfaces - but why a talented guy like that makes such rotten sounds is beyond me - or perhaps I have missed something vital. I thought it made him sound a poorer musician that he actually is.
K
kurth
Member
that an ipad instrument copying a sitar is like comparing grapes to apples to a real sitar, which is incredibly difficult to even play much less master
then if it's not mastering just one...or playing a variety just ok,then what other ways are there ? Even Gareth Hudson only mastered keys...he didn't play the mandolin? Levon played drums and mandolin, but wasn't a great mandolin player. I don't agree ..maybe one out of a million can master different musical systems....it's like languages. People can be totally bilingual, mastering two languages well, but they must be totally emersed since childhood But 3..nope. At 3 ...5, or even 6...they're competent but never fluent.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I found an example of good non-keyboard playing.
HumanPlanet
_R*A*F_
You are entitled to your opinion.
K
kurth
Member
Human...that's kinda of like telling a free man they have a right to be free
Rob... one guy is playing a cover,and the other guy is improvising. I don't get emulation. Is it like who does the slight of hand magic trick better? Fool our brains into thinking it's a real instrument ? Seems a diversion from the act of listening to a work as a whole. As well, it would require knowing what would be the differences. Not a big percentage of listeners are going be able to identify if the cello was a vst or a piece of wood. In the end, they're all one's and zero's.
We're just on different paths. When you said you never listen to lyrics, & that's all I do....it was hopeless we would ever agree. Not paying attention to the main element seems inconceivable from my perspective.
But you passed along some useful tips and I'm grateful.
thank you for your precious time /k
rob aylestone
Moderator
Its fine kurth, the point i think is that alternative work surfaces can be more expressive in the hands of somebody who has the skill to use them, but others seem to be reinventions of a piano keyboard, but less capable of expression.i look at some of the walkthroughs Spitfire do on their products, and because of them, i have bought them, but it seems i lack the ability to reproduce what they have built into the products. They often need right hand for the keys, and almost five fingers on faders in the left hand, to access the vsti adjustments.
Maybe its mimicking a real instrument, or accessing even more amazing sounds, does it matter.
The words and music thing is a bit different take the music away and you still have poetry, but music is still music without the lyrics, just more ‘exposed’? If you have brilliant and expressive words, what supports them needs to be solid. Tuning precise, timing tight, balanced correctly and musically appropriate. Lots of the alternative controllers in the youtube videos are clever, but musically undeveloped.
Maybe its mimicking a real instrument, or accessing even more amazing sounds, does it matter.
The words and music thing is a bit different take the music away and you still have poetry, but music is still music without the lyrics, just more ‘exposed’? If you have brilliant and expressive words, what supports them needs to be solid. Tuning precise, timing tight, balanced correctly and musically appropriate. Lots of the alternative controllers in the youtube videos are clever, but musically undeveloped.
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
Not quite the same thing, but for years I never had any aftertouch keyboards.
Now I have several, with Fatar keys.
Aftertouch is not natural to a traditional keyboard, but it is musical, right under your fingers.
Now I have several, with Fatar keys.
Aftertouch is not natural to a traditional keyboard, but it is musical, right under your fingers.
K
kurth
Member
Raymond...I mentioned I recently bought a nektar t4. I'll be working on that. And I'm watching the new studiologic sl's. the nektar keys leave something to be desired.
Truthfully...I just got out of hospital for 3 days at the end of last week, so I'll be picking up where i left off, hopefully soon. Humorously the piano version of Monet's was done when I was at deaths door, literally...so I'll probably record the whole thing again when I get some pedals.
And btw...Rob....the idea of planning my funeral never occurred to me.... jaja.
thanks again guys/k
ps....I love jazz. mccoy tyner, keithjarrett,weather report. If I could only have one album...it'd be mccoy tyner's atlantis. So I don't absolutely need words ...but when there are lyrics, they're the most important element imho.
Truthfully...I just got out of hospital for 3 days at the end of last week, so I'll be picking up where i left off, hopefully soon. Humorously the piano version of Monet's was done when I was at deaths door, literally...so I'll probably record the whole thing again when I get some pedals.
And btw...Rob....the idea of planning my funeral never occurred to me.... jaja.
thanks again guys/k
ps....I love jazz. mccoy tyner, keithjarrett,weather report. If I could only have one album...it'd be mccoy tyner's atlantis. So I don't absolutely need words ...but when there are lyrics, they're the most important element imho.
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