How loud is 85 db?

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Blue Bear Sound said:
Incorrect......... good old Fletcher-Munson curves show human ear response is MOST EVEN at 85dB (ie, not weighted to any one frequency, which is what I meant by balanced)..........

You think I'm making this up??? LOOK IT UP!
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I have the graph here, or how did you think I came up with those numbers??? The most significant thing is that you will hear the bass more the louder you play. But the louder you play, the more will also room acoustics influence the sound, and it also influences the bass most, so... For home recording, the 85dB reccomendation is a bad one either way.

As well as you said that room acoustics always influences the sound, I can just as well say that the human ear never is balanced... Because it isn't...

And based on your assumtion that the ear is working best in a special range because of it's natural evolution (or something like that). Then it must be assumed that what is good for the ears is what the human ear has listened to for thousands (or millions) of years. And what is that?

Group 1 - Constant sounds:
Human voices talking
Walking behind a horse with a plow.
The sound of the wind in the trees.
etc...

Group 2 - Shorter louder sounds:
People screaming
Dogs barking
People fighting
Chopping wood.
Etc...

We could say that the human ear always have been exposed for constant sounds in the 0-65dB range... Plus shorter stronger sounds above that.

Now. In what group would the sound level 85dB be located? In group 2 no doubt.

In what group would the way in which you listen to your monitors be located, with the time aspect in mind? In group 1 no doubt.

Is it natural for the human ear to listen to a combination like that? No way! It is very unnatural.

Is it natural for the human ear to listen to hihats, crash cymbals and distorted guitars at a level of 85dB all day long? No way. That is something the human ear never has done before.

Is it strange then that people get problems with their ears? No, not at all.

As listening to your monitors is something you do for a long time, the natural thing for your ears must be to place it in group 1 all together. In other words - Turn the volume down!

Blue Bear Sound said:
Then I would suggest whatever meter you used to check your levels wasn't calibrated very well........ that or you have the ears of a dog............
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It's my ears... They are over sensitive. I know that. My ears allready have been damaged... That's why I am so against this 85dB crap! The problem is that you can get ear damage even in a level that you think is quite confortable. (Because your ears are designed to stand for loud sounds if it is for a shorter period of time.)

That's why the 85dB recommendation IS DANGEROUS for many people. The problem is that you won't know until you get damaged....

One other problem is that it's considered to be cool to listen at a loud level for some reason. And if you can't stand for it, then you are a real nerd... I wonder why it's so cool with sunglasses then, wouldn't it be a lot more cool to look into the sun as long as you can?

/Anders
 

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Blue Bear Sound said:
So that must mean everytime a truck passes by or Boray's exposed to city traffic, he passes out from auditory overload????????
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Sadly, but true... I even use cotton in my ears when driving my car...

Another thing... If you record an acoustic guitar, it's about 60-65dB loud. A singer is about 70dB. Then why would you like to listen to this at 85dB? Then there would be an unnatural level of bass to it...

/Anders
 
Boray said:
Sadly, but true... I even use cotton in my ears when driving my car...
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Then that's an atypical condition, so you're hardly in a position to generalize about what's appropriate or not to others.

Your oversensitivity to SPL diminishes any chance of comparing auditory conditions to anyone else except others having the same condition, so why even bother making the statements you did? Clearly your experience is not one shared by many, yet you present it as if everyone should be adopting your er, "challenges."
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Then that's an atypical condition, so you're hardly in a position to generalize about what's appropriate or not to others.

Your oversensitivity to SPL diminishes any chance of comparing auditory conditions to anyone else except others having the same condition, so why even bother making the statements you did? Clearly your experience is not one shared by many, yet you present it as if everyone should be adopting your er, "challenges."
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Because I have the experiance of what can happen. My ears were normal a couple of years ago. I'm a warning example. And 40 percent of all rock or jazz musicians either has tinnitus or are over sensitive to sounds. So my experiance IS actually shared by many. And if you have any sence at all, you should stop recommending people to mix at 85dB. Or do you want people's suffering on your conscience? The facts are there. Many people WILL get damaged ears of listening too loud and too long to music. And the threshold is highly individual!

/Anders
 
As the chart shows, city traffic is almost double the level of 85dB (a 6dB increase means a 100% increase in level) and I don't think city traffic is the leading cause of hearing damage.

In any case - you have your opinion, Boray -- and it's not the first time I completely disagree with you! At least we're not trashing each other about it, this time!!

You're right about one thing though - everyone should be aware of their monitoring levels and should note their comfort zones. If it's too loud for someone's ears, it probably is!
 
HEY!! HEY!!! HEY!!!

Who cares cut the cat fight out.

85db is considered by the MAJORITY of pro Mixers and Scientists as the max level for extended term mixing. Heck I mix at an average of 74-78db 90% of the time.

I must add In the studio as I am also a live engineer who tends to mix live at about 96-104db at FOH Mix position

I have learned the lower the volume the warmer the mix and the smoother the frequecy response I get.

So Boray chill dawg!!!! You could have been exposed to 90db A weighted and never knew it.

My hearing is fantabulous and gets better and better. I was a FOH engineer mixing at 110db SPL average till I grew the heck up and dropped the vloume. Of coure when i did that i got even more gigs. Hmm go figure that the listening public likes comfortable SPL's

And as far as your warning, remember the charts out discuss exposure levels and length of time!!!!!!!

How long were you exposing yourself to those excessive levels?????

Anyway help the guy out. Dude max level 85dbA.

Live with it and mix well.
 
Hate to get religious... But the bible says out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witneses everyword is established. I am that 2nd witness BBS. SO yeah.LOL

Hey Bear How is the studio going long term???

I am bout ready to build my 2nd room in the basement plan to go Surround Sound... :)

Bryan Giles

U know I need to get up there R U in toronto???

If So My church has opened a church your way so I need to make a vist and check out your spot. :)
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
You're right about one thing though - everyone should be aware of their monitoring levels and should note their comfort zones. If it's too loud for someone's ears, it probably is!
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Agreed! ;)

/Anders
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
As the chart shows, city traffic is almost double the level of 85dB (a 6dB increase means a 100% increase in level) and I don't think city traffic is the leading cause of hearing damage.

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I hate city traffic noise but if you are from a metropolitan area, it is something you get use to. Bear, I’m not so sure that becoming desensitized to 85db background noise is a go thing; hence the term noise pollution. Some on this site may be from very rural areas and don’t get subjected to high levels of noise (unless self induced).

Ever been in your studio with a live drummer and while your head (more importantly your ears) is near his kit, because you are re-positioning mics, he starts wailing away? What……what you say? :eek:

I’m just saying that if I owned a commercial studio and choose to make my living in the recording industry, I would do anything/everything to protect my ears. After all, your ears are the golden tools that you cannot upgrade
 
Hey, mixmkr

Wouldn't that be "YELL that to Pete Townshend"???

He's almost deaf!!! And, now that it's too late for him, he strongly advocates that musicians protect their hearing.
 
Simman said:
Bear, I’m not so sure that becoming desensitized to 85db background noise is a go thing; hence the term noise pollution.
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You obviously haven't raised children
 
Re: Hey, mixmkr

kesterdevine said:
Wouldn't that be "YELL that to Pete Townshend"???

He's almost deaf!!! And, now that it's too late for him, he strongly advocates that musicians protect their hearing.
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you're 1000% right..

My sarcasm seems to be lost in some of my posts!!;)

you're not one of those "nature lovers" are you though...that goes around handing out bird identification books at airports and burning fig leaves in peoples front yards....are ya??!!:eek: :D :D :D
 
Huh? What did ya say? I can't hear you!

Where is that sarcastic emoticon?? *@#! ;-) :-)))
 
me personally its great to CHECK you r mixes constantly at 85 db, then i lower it down so my ears don't get fatigued but YMMV
 
I just bought an SPL meter at Radio Shack and measured my listening/mixing levels at my normal mixing position, some 4 ft from my monitors.

I was surprised to find that I'd been mixing at right around 80-85 dB all along, and I must say I find those levels VERY comfortable. Although I also check my mixes at lower levels (and occasionally in the hallway ouside my studio...) I personally don't see how 85dB would be considered a dangerous level, unless perhaps you have over-sensitive hearing and sit in front of your monitors all day every day.
 
my personal experience is that 85dbs at my listening position is slightly uncomfortable and led me for a while to start listening to other sources like tv and radio at louder volumes than I was accustomed to.

In short, I stopped mixing at 85 dbs because I was concerned about hearing loss over and extended period of time.
 
NYMorningstar said:
You obviously haven't raised children
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I have 10 children 5 boys and 5 girls and for some reason I mix between 72 and 78 db 80% of the time.

And they are WELL TRAINED to not make noise in the studio and to KEEP THE VOLUME DOWN in the house. That, my friend is rasing children.

about 80-85db normal house volume is acceptable they want to get loud ... I Present the great outdoors. LOL

(Not digging at you morningstar) I just refuse to get desensitized. I want to do this forever.... :)
 
giles117 said:
I have 10 children 5 boys and 5 girls and for some reason I mix between 72 and 78 db 80% of the time.

And they are WELL TRAINED to not make noise in the studio and to KEEP THE VOLUME DOWN in the house. That, my friend is rasing children.

about 80-85db normal house volume is acceptable they want to get loud ... I Present the great outdoors. LOL

(Not digging at you morningstar) I just refuse to get desensitized. I want to do this forever.... :)
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You don't think you're desensitized? There's no way 80-85db of noise would be acceptable in my house and it certainly wouldn't be normal. But then again I only raised 6 of them.
 
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