How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

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Al, sorry for the delay in answering you, but the studio has been pretty busy.

Yes, a pair of 603S's in X/Y should sound fine, as long as you're not too close. As far as if it's worth trying, yes - at least you'll learn something about the technique, even if it doesn't work for this particular application (and it might work perfectly for this).

Please keep in mind that even though stereo is great, it's not always the best technique for maximum emotional impact. Just as black and white is sometimes better for conveying a mood (instead of color) in movies, don't be afraid to think in terms of mono instead of stereo when it might be more appropriate.
 
No apology necessary. You're doing me a favor responding at all.

My buddy the singer-songwriter is funding this purchase and I couldn't talk him into springing for a pair of MXL603S's. Since we've learned how hard it is to record a J45 (thanks again for that), the results we've gotten from our A-T MB4000C seem a lot better. I suggested buying another one of those for X/Y, but he wants an MXL603S to go with the Behringer ECM8000. So stereo will have to wait for a budget increase.

Thanks again for all the great help. I know our work here is going to benefit enormously.
 
This thread contains too much information to let lay around in the back pages of this forum.
 
Harvey or anyone else,
I'm thinking of getting some figure 8 pattern mic, and my question is: Will all figure 8 mics give an equal frequency response on both sides of the mic, or can this differ?

If so, are mics with selectable polar pattern more likely to have different frequency responses in figure 8 position, compared to a mic that can only do figure 8 (like a ribbon)?

I also wonder, for M/S-recording, is it necessary that the two mics have to be very similar (like in X/Y-recording), or can they differ some? Could you, for example, use a C3 for side and an NTK for mid?

Any recommendations on good figure 8 mics?

Thanks
/Henrik
 
Henrik said:
Harvey or anyone else,
I'm thinking of getting some figure 8 pattern mic, and my question is: Will all figure 8 mics give an equal frequency response on both sides of the mic, or can this differ?

No, it can differ greatly depending on how the figure 8 pattern is achieved. Ribbon mics that are designed strictly as figure 8 mics have the most perfect figure 8 pattern AND the flattest off-axis response.

If so, are mics with selectable polar pattern more likely to have different frequency responses in figure 8 position, compared to a mic that can only do figure 8 (like a ribbon)?

It depends on how well each diaphragm is matched and balanced.

I also wonder, for M/S-recording, is it necessary that the two mics have to be very similar (like in X/Y-recording), or can they differ some? Could you, for example, use a C3 for side and an NTK for mid?

Yes, you could use that combination.

Any recommendations on good figure 8 mics?

RCA 44BX, Royer, Coles 4038, Beyer 130?, etc.

Thanks
/Henrik [/B]
 
OK, so here's silly question:

I only have one mic that does figure 8 and I'm looking for some variety for M/S experimentation (my new toy). What kind of trouble am I setting up for with this idea? Has anyone tried it?

Using 2 cardioids set up as close as X/Y micing but facing away from each other to mimic figure 8 and using the combination as my side signal.

Something tells me it won't work well, but I don't know why it won't unless it has something to do with the omni-ness of cardioid mics with low freqs.
 
3 and 1 Rule

As it relates to phase problems with two or mics, could someone explain the details of this?

Also, is the rule consistent using cardiods and/or omnis?

Thanks,

-Doug
 
Harvey Gerst said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Henrik
Harvey or anyone else,
I'm thinking of getting some figure 8 pattern mic, and my question is: Will all figure 8 mics give an equal frequency response on both sides of the mic, or can this differ?

No, it can differ greatly depending on how the figure 8 pattern is achieved. Ribbon mics that are designed strictly as figure 8 mics have the most perfect figure 8 pattern AND the flattest off-axis response.

If so, are mics with selectable polar pattern more likely to have different frequency responses in figure 8 position, compared to a mic that can only do figure 8 (like a ribbon)?

It depends on how well each diaphragm is matched and balanced.

I also wonder, for M/S-recording, is it necessary that the two mics have to be very similar (like in X/Y-recording), or can they differ some? Could you, for example, use a C3 for side and an NTK for mid?

Yes, you could use that combination.

Any recommendations on good figure 8 mics?

RCA 44BX, Royer, Coles 4038, Beyer 130?, etc.

Thanks
/Henrik
[/B]

Harvey,
thanks for this. But I wonder - you are only mentioning ribbon mics when I asked for some examples of decent figure 8 mics. Do you mean to say there are no condensors with selectable patterns that can produce a decent figure 8?

Also, I understand your favourite method of overhead drum micing is a spaced pair of omnis. Does this mean you're not too worried about the mono compatibility, or do you have a trick up your sleeve in order to make the spaced pair work flawlessly in mono? (Hopefully some of the music you are recording gets aired in radio and TV). Why don't you use the MS technique, which I understand is foolproof for mono?

Just came to think of another thing I never really grasped about the MS-technique (even after having read Wes Dooley's web site. I must be dim. I'm a bass player, OK?):

If I undstand it correctly the sound of the mid mic is subtracted to the sound of the side mic on one channel, and added to the sound of the side mic on the other channel. But what exactly does it mean to subtract a sound from another (as opposed to adding one)?

Thanks, again, for this great thread!

/Henrik
 
God I love this thread!

Get up, shower, go to work, read this thread, I start my day this way everyday now!


Ditto on the question for non-ribbon figure mics. Any good condensers that may fit the bill?


nP
 
Gimme another day to get over this damn flu and think about it for a little bit more. Yes, you can use almost any figure 8 mic as the "side" mic, but there are some other considerations. Lemme see if I can make this easier than Wes Dooley's explanation, (which I have a hard time following). I'll try to post a complete answer by Sunday.
 
Harvey...

I owe you a TON of gratitude for taking your time to share this valuable knowledge. I was up until 4AM last night reading the entire printed post while struggling through a blistering earache. Damn - it's hell getting old... ;)

I just could not put down the article. Kept saying to myself...zip - ya gotta be up in 4 hours to get the kids off to school - only ONE MORE paragraph. The only problem was I COULDN'T STOP reading!

What a wealth of information! I'm getting ready to record a friends' band and mic configurations keep running through my mind. :D (this is a good thing)

I do have one question for you about micing a loud singer...me.
When I say loud I mean LOUD. When Shure measured a vocalist at 135dB from one inch it wasn't me. I tried it today at 1 inch and about 3/4 volume and PEGGED the meter at 130dB.

This is not to brag...it creates difficulties while recording. I already break up soft and loud passages into different performances - moving the mic in close (4 to 6 inches) on soft passages and far (12 or more inches) for louder passages. I use a AT4033 condenser with the pad on and set the position as you suggest - forehead high aiming slightly down to the nose - screened with a pop screen. I run through an outboard compressor at a 3:1 ratio and set the threshold to compress only during these loud spots...

My question is this...for these really loud passages can you suggest different mics / placement techniques which may help me control these dynamics and get a better sound without as much danger of overs??

I'm a trained vocalist so I'm pretty consistent...I just have a damn loud voice. I always wondered why some people stare at me during concerts...

...maybe because I'm louder than the PA?? I donno...

Hope you feel better soon...no hurry at all for a reply...

My ears are so plugged I can't sing right now anyway...:(

Thanks again for an excellent view into what was the mystery of mics...

zip >>
 
Zip,
what the hell do you need a microphone for? Just shout right into your converters...

:D
 
I dont have anything to add. I just wanted to be the 400th post on this thread.
 
Breaking down the M/S technique in simple terms.

Okay, I'm gonna try and do this without vectors, math, "sum and difference" signal theory, and no pictures - except for the pictures we'll draw in our mind. Let's start by imagining a figure 8 ribbon mic and how it works, since the concept is really simple.

A figure 8 ribbon mic basically consists of a piece of thin metal ribbon, hanging in a large magnetic field. The ribbon is fasten at the top and bottom, and a small wire is connected to each end of the ribbon. When there is a sound, it causes the ribbon to move inside the magnetic field; a small voltage is generated, and that's the signal that comes down the cable.

The ribbon is free to move forward and backward, but not side to side. If a sound comes in from the front, it puts out a positive signal. If a sound comes in from the back, it puts out a negative signal. If a sound comes in from the side, it hits both the front and back of the ribbon equally, and no signal comes out.

Okay, now let's put this mic into our mixing board, set all the balance controls straight up, and listen to it.

If we put a singer in front of the mic and another singer in back of the mic, it'll pick up both singers pretty equally, because the front and back of the figure 8 ribbon mic are both open. A singer singing into the side of the mic won't be heard at all.

Okay, is everybody cool on all this stuff so far? Cuz here's where we get a little tricky.

Let's imagine 3 trumpet players spread out across a stage. The player on the left is A, in the center is B, and at the right is C.

At the same time, we're gonna turn our mic sideways, so that the front of the mic is facing the trumpet player (A) standing at the left side of the stage, the back of the mic is facing the trumpet player (C) standing at the right side of the stage, and the side of the mic is facing the trumpet player (B), standing in the middle of the stage. When we listen to the recording, we can hear A and C clearly, and we won't hear B hardly at all, as expected.

OK, here's where the "sleight of hand" magic trick comes in.

Let's run the mic into a Y cable, except one of the ends of the Y cable is wired backwards. This means we'll have a normal positive signal going to one channel, AND a mirror image negative signal going to the other channel.

If you bring up the level of either channel by itself, you'll get a good sound. But if you leave one channel up and bring the other channel up slowly, the ENTIRE signal will eventually disappear when the levels are exactly equal. The plus and minus signals exactly cancel out. But here's where it gets wild.

Stick a cardioid mic on top of the figure 8 and point it towards the center of the stage, and bring up it's level on a third mixer channel, again with the pan control centered. We pretty much hear the middle trumpet now and we hear the two trumpets on both sides of the stage, but softer than the middle one. And the ribbon mic is still silent, so why even bother with it?

Here's the magic trick:

Move the pan control on the first ribbon mic's channel all the way to the left. Move the pan control on the backwards wired channel all the way to the right. Whoa, full, glorious stereo. Kill the middle mono mic and the entire signal disappears again. Bring back the mono center mic and we have full stereo again. What the hell is going on - what's happening?

Think of each trumpet as putting out a little puff of positive air. As the trumpet note from A hits the ribbon the mic faithfully records it to the track that corresponds to that ribbon mic's channel. At the same time it records a mirror image negative to the next ribbon track (since it's wired backwards). It also records a positive puff to the cardioid in the center).

When you add that center cardioid mic, it combines with the ribbon signal from the left, and moves the apparent sound all the way to the left. The trumpet on the right gets the reversed channel's attention and it combines with the center mic to produce a very right hand sounding signal. The center trumpet is only heard by the cardioid so it only comes bact thru the center.

By adjusting the level of the side channels relative to the center mic, you can get any stereo spread you want, from full stereo to perfect mono.

So can you use condenser mics that have a figure eight pattern, or three cardioids, each pointing in a different direction? Yes, as long as you can get the two side channels to null completely, or damn close to it. One mic or side has to face left and the other side/mic has to face right, and the two channels hafta cancel out almost completely. How you do that is up to you. The cardioid mic faces forward and completes the stereo information gathering.

That's how M/S works. I use/like ribbons for the side mic cuz they just have one moving part, no phantom power to worry about, and if the mixer channel has a polarity reverse switch, a simple Y cord will work. And the signal is automatically identical to start with.

Does this about cover it?
 
(Reaching for my mics to give it a try....)

Sure does....I now have a lot more to chew on to see if I can get this to work the way you describe.

Fat chance getting two cardiods to cancel out, eh? Well, we'll see...I'm trying to figure out a way to mult my figure 8 so that I can run one channel through a phase switch...there's gotta be a way to do it!....(fumble through cords)...

Very clear, Harvey. Thanks. I hope you're feeling better.
Chris
 
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