How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

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Don, if the drums are tuned correctly, you don't need a big set, even for heavy metal. Our most popular kit here at the studio consists of:

a 22"x16" Tama Rockstar DX Kick drum
a 10"x10" Tama Rockstar DX High Tom
a 12"x11" Tama Rockstar DX Mid Tom
a 13"x12" Tama Rockstar DX Low Tom
and a 16"x16" Tama Rockstar DX Floor Tom

The 13"x 12" doubles as a floor tom (replacing the 16"x16") or as the third rack tom, depending on the group.

When tuned and miked correctly, the sound is huge!!
 
Suggestion . . .

"I really like the way the vocals sound. I wouldn't want to sound like that all the time, but if I could figure it out, it would be a great new color to add to my "arsenal" (which is currently sadly lacking in variety)."

"If anyone has any ideas as to how this sound was acheived, I'd love to hear them."

----------------------------------

Try:

1) Really brite, cheap plate reverb.

2) Lots and lots of chorus.

3) A little more chorus.

Done. No need to ditch that 57 . . . no need to take up a summer internship with Sir George, feather-dusting his massive mic collection. You can stay in E. Lansing, play at Ricks, and pick up drunk freshmen girls at Sparty's. :)
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Don, if the drums are tuned correctly, you don't need a big set, even for heavy metal. Our most popular kit here at the studio consists of:

a 22"x16" Tama Rockstar DX Kick drum
a 10"x10" Tama Rockstar DX High Tom
a 12"x11" Tama Rockstar DX Mid Tom
a 13"x12" Tama Rockstar DX Low Tom
and a 16"x16" Tama Rockstar DX Floor Tom

The 13"x 12" doubles as a floor tom (replacing the 16"x16") or as the third rack tom, depending on the group.

When tuned and miked correctly, the sound is huge!!
Click to expand...

I would totally agree with Harvey on the tuning part. New heads for the drums (which can get costly if you have to change them every time you record) help immensely if you are going for a real tone-y sound. If you just like the drums to be pitched "thuds", you can get away with older (less than 6 months) or thicker heads (ala remo pinstripes etc).

I find that smaller thinner cymbals tend to work better as well. for example, I once did cymbal overdubs for a record that had a lot of triggered drum sounds and I used a 12 UFIP splash as a crash cymbal. It sounded fantastic!

What kind of folk music? just acoustic music or are we talking dulcimer? hehe

nP
 
Re: Suggestion . . .

chessrock said:


Done. No need to ditch that 57 . . . no need to take up a summer internship with Sir George, feather-dusting his massive mic collection. You can stay in E. Lansing, play at Ricks, and pick up drunk freshmen girls at Sparty's. :)
Click to expand...

Hm. You know, maybe I'll just skip the music and go straight to the drunk freshmen. :)

You're from Michigan, I'm guessing?
 
Thanks for the info.

Of the 2 kits under consideration I'm thinking of an even smaller Kick 18 X 14. The rest are of similar size as the set listed above.

If I need a larger kit then I can always deal with my nephew's or the clients but it has been a real pain to stay on top of . As a drummer in a hard core rock band my nephew beats the snot out of them and head life is very short. Important sessions always require a half day's work getting the kit right including changing heads. Other work is hit or miss (mostly miss) but it's not critical. Storage space and money is also a problem so I can't buy more than one kit. I have enough trouble with space for the guitar collection.

My studio is just a kind of scratch pad kind of place where clients come to work out ideas and do demo kind of stuff. Then it's off to a "real" studio if the material warrants it. The rest of the work I do is live sound and recording. I have a little niche market that is starting to work out. Covering all the requirements of this kind of gig has made it easier to find work. Anyone who has ever had to balance front of house and monitors knows trying to get them sounding decent and not adversly affecting the recording can be a real challange. This can be really hard when you have to interface 2 separate systems and companies (recording and PA).

The studio is a part-time gig. I'm a full time hardware geek in a corporate studio. I get to play with all the big toys at work but I really enjoy the work I do in my own little place more.

I haven't recorded any dulcimers in the studio but have dealt with them live along with anything else you can imagine. One of my current clients plays acoustic and electric Cello. The instrument is played through a delay and phrase sampler. It is a very wild, unique style. His web site is at: Cellobop.com

I like to work with odd and strange kinds of off beat stuff. If it's really strange then it's for me. Otherwise it's the general singer/songwriter genre stuff.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
Folkcafe.com
 
Lack of originality

Considering the lack of originality I'll still say it: wooooooooooow!

Harvey, you're the greatest. It took me about 4 nights to read and comprehend all of this, but those were the most usefull 4 nights I ever spent (except for the time I met my present girlfriend). This is the stuff that dreams are made of!

I'm from Romania and over here all the studios have audio engineers with only hands on experience, but no school (no knowledge in theory). I'm very greatfull for all this, and if you don't mind I'll translate it in Romanian and post it in one of my forums so people over here can learn THE MOST IMPORTANT STEPS in audio engineering.

Also, lots of thanks to everybody that contributed to this awesome thread, especially the guys who gathered all this info in compact files!

I know this has been said before also, but it needs to be emhasized: One day we'll be able to say that we learned from the great Harvey Gerst himself!

Where can we send those checks again?

The unworthy,

Tase/Rthodox
 
Re: Lack of originality

Rthodox said:
Considering the lack of originality I'll still say it: wooooooooooow!

Harvey, you're the greatest. It took me about 4 nights to read and comprehend all of this, but those were the most usefull 4 nights I ever spent (except for the time I met my present girlfriend). This is the stuff that dreams are made of!

I'm from Romania and over here all the studios have audio engineers with only hands on experience, but no school (no knowledge in theory). I'm very greatfull for all this, and if you don't mind I'll translate it in Romanian and post it in one of my forums so people over here can learn THE MOST IMPORTANT STEPS in audio engineering.

Also, lots of thanks to everybody that contributed to this awesome thread, especially the guys who gathered all this info in compact files!

I know this has been said before also, but it needs to be emhasized: One day we'll be able to say that we learned from the great Harvey Gerst himself!

Where can we send those checks again?

The unworthy,

Tase/Rthodox
Click to expand...
I don't mind if you translate this whole thread into Romanian; I'm very flattered you found some things of interest in the thread. The big problem has always been that the information is out there, but nobody took the time to show how it all relates to each other. The biggest thanks should go to Chris F. who took the time to formulate a question that went to the heart of the matter; namely, how does all this stuff relate to each other?

Some of my posts are sketchy at best, or incomplete, but they at least give people a starting point to learn more about one particular aspect of something. Overall, I'm very proud of this thread. It was something that's been needed for a long time, and I'm glad I was able to contribute in a small way to paying back an industry that has sustained me for most of my life, and rewarded me with so many good friends and associates.
 
Re: Re: Lack of originality

Harvey Gerst said:
I don't mind if you translate this whole thread into Romanian; I'm very flattered you found some things of interest in the thread. The big problem has always been that the information is out there, but nobody took the time to show how it all relates to each other. The biggest thanks should go to Chris F. who took the time to formulate a question that went to the heart of the matter; namely, how does all this stuff relate to each other?

 Nice try Harvey, but the biggest thanks definitely goes to YOU for taking the time and energy to answer such a giant question. Any idiot can ask questions - I'm living proof!

Some of my posts are sketchy at best, or incomplete, but they at least give people a starting point to learn more about one particular aspect of something. Overall, I'm very proud of this thread. It was something that's been needed for a long time, and I'm glad I was able to contribute in a small way to paying back an industry that has sustained me for most of my life, and rewarded me with so many good friends and associates.
Click to expand...

And you should be proud. I know I'll be spending the next few years trying to digest all of this stuff and put it into actual practice. Thanks again, you've taught a lot of people a lot of new things.
 
Hmm...I could maybe contribute with a Swedish translation as well.

A question here for you Harvey:
I'm in the business of getting a stereo pair of mics for drum overheads etc. The Oktava M012 is a bit out of my price range, but I'll of course go there if I must. But in your big test of Marshall mics (another near classic Harvey thread) you mentioned that the MXL603's sound almost identical to the Oktavas. One difference however seems to be the polar pattern, the 603's are wide cardioid ("near omni" I think you said). When stereo micing, I prefer the x/y setup, since a lot of my stuff goes on the Internet, and mono compatibility is necessary for lightweight files.

Bla bla bla, anyway - do you think the 603's wide cardioid pattern makes them unsuitable for x/y micing?

Plus, do you think it's OK to buy a pair without having heard them, or should they be matched? This would present a problem for me, since I will have to buy them online.

I'm also considering the ADK A51sc - small diaphragm condensator. Apparently it's voiced like a KM84. Tried them? Heard of anyone who has? Any good?

Thanks
/Henrik
 
Henrik,

I would have no problems buying two 603Ss and not having them matched, of course I would like them exactly matched if I could get them that way. I would also pict up a pair of those dirt cheap Behringer reference mics and try those as well, wide spaced.

The 603S should work fine as an X/Y pair. They're wide, but still very cardioid.

I haven't heard the ADK mic.
 
Picturing the mix

Harvey, thanks for the great thread.

I can't help but wonder as to your thought process in building the final mix. Now I know there would be lots of variables so let me try a scenario, let's say a ballad. Piano, Drums, Acoustic Guitar and vocal, maybe some strings via synth or real and steel guitar.

How do you approach the placement of these instruments in the sound spectrum. What EQ considerations are you thinking about as you mike these and how do you go about building the framework of the core mix?

Do you have a preset sound picture in you mind before you start or do you just mike each instrument to its most natural sound and try to match it up from the board?

Finally, I would like to hear your thoughts on reverb, delay or just ambiance in general that you would use in the scenario above.

Maybe we could take this to a new thread. Any suggestions you could provide would be appreciated.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Henrik,

I would have no problems buying two 603Ss and not having them matched, of course I would like them exactly matched if I could get them that way. I would also pict up a pair of those dirt cheap Behringer reference mics and try those as well, wide spaced.

The 603S should work fine as an X/Y pair. They're wide, but still very cardioid.

I haven't heard the ADK mic.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Harvey!

/Henrik
 
It isn't forgotten Gidge, it's fulfilled. What a monster useful thread, yeah?

Harvey, it's been a good year. For me anyway, and this thread's been part of the reason. I now have a 'mic from below the guitar'
technique that's stood me in good stead through six months. And now I'm trying new stuff I hadn't tried before. Cheers, you.
 
I second the motion

Yeah, I have to agree that, upon year-end reflection, this thread is high on the list of good things that happened in 2001. I've re-read the whole thing a few times, and I take more away from it each time. I've read several books that touch on the subject, but this one is the most valuable, both because of the interactive nature of it and Harvey's gift for making complex subjects seem simple, essential, and crystal clear. Many many thanks.
 
Re: I second the motion

zoetrope said:
Yeah, I have to agree that, upon year-end reflection, this thread is high on the list of good things that happened in 2001. I've re-read the whole thing a few times, and I take more away from it each time. I've read several books that touch on the subject, but this one is the most valuable, both because of the interactive nature of it and Harvey's gift for making complex subjects seem simple, essential, and crystal clear. Many many thanks.
Click to expand...


Word.


Thanks to Harvey and this thread, I now have a bunch of new mics, information about how to use them, and a basic understanding of the concepts involved. My dream of having a setup that produces great sounding recordings for "punch and play" sessions has become a reality. Many thanks, and happy holidays.

Chris Fitzgerald
 
I agree....this has to be THE single best thread ever on the BBS.....some other great ones are sonusmans "finally shares mixing secrets", s8-n's "the beatles suck", any of S2K's rants such as rant redux.....man, this place rocks and i just hate to see threads like this end...i have separation anxiety.....i do know that although the posts to this thread will slow down dramatically, the views to it wont because i will link others to it often......

(stands and applauds Harvey)

well done.....
 
*Whistles* Wooo!! Yeah Harvey!!

.....*sigh*.....I'm really gonna miss this thread. :(

Hey Gidge, you may want to point them in the direction of my reduced version (without all the useless banter as it was once said) plus it's in Word format so you can highlight and underline key parts as you go. The link's buried back there somewhere in this monster of a thread. :D

Thank you again Harvey, :)
-tkr
 
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