One of the problems I run into in my recording folly is I don't know when to stop messing around with a mix. I'll get everything where I want it, listen on various devices, and be happy with what I've done. Then when listening a week or two later, I'll think "Hmmm...I'm not quite happy with the bass tone, or rack tom 2 level", etc. Then I'm back in the Hatchery re-tweaking. I guess I should consider myself lucky that I have the resources to "fix" things myself instead of having paid someone and later having regrets. But come on, I have a song called "49 Years" and I'm now 53. It's almost there.
How do you know when enough is enough
- Thread starter bongoboy
- Start date
Dogbreath
Im an ex-spurt
yeah...good luck with that. 
I've just come to the conclusion that I'll never be "done" with a song so I pretty much just make it my best for that particular day and leave it alone.
It is what it is.
When I got my new board, my first thoughts were to go back and re-do all the stuff from my old board because of better converters, fx pre's etc...
Then I thought...to hell with it...that's as good as it was. The new stuff will be as good as it is and the stuff after that will be as good as it's gonna be.
We all get better at this and I think one of the productivity killers is tweaking old stuff.
fuggit...move on and make new better stuff.
my thoughts anyway...
I've just come to the conclusion that I'll never be "done" with a song so I pretty much just make it my best for that particular day and leave it alone.
It is what it is.
When I got my new board, my first thoughts were to go back and re-do all the stuff from my old board because of better converters, fx pre's etc...
Then I thought...to hell with it...that's as good as it was. The new stuff will be as good as it is and the stuff after that will be as good as it's gonna be.
We all get better at this and I think one of the productivity killers is tweaking old stuff.
fuggit...move on and make new better stuff.
my thoughts anyway...
Armistice
Son of Yoda
LOL - I'm in this phase at the moment.
What forces my hand is that I'm producing a CD... a real actual piece of plastic... and I have to get it done before the band's other member's wife has their second child on 7 Mar, or thereabouts. So although I go home every night after work and spend three of four hours shining things up with the turd polish, I have a fast approaching deadline that will stop me in about a week. All that extra work has been totally worth it by the way as I can now listen on my actual stereo and not think "home recording" every 3.5 seconds...
So two things will tell you when enough is enough: (a) a deadline that can't be shifted (b) a realisation that what you're doing isn't "adding value" any more... you're not improving your mix in any way, just changing it...
What forces my hand is that I'm producing a CD... a real actual piece of plastic... and I have to get it done before the band's other member's wife has their second child on 7 Mar, or thereabouts. So although I go home every night after work and spend three of four hours shining things up with the turd polish, I have a fast approaching deadline that will stop me in about a week. All that extra work has been totally worth it by the way as I can now listen on my actual stereo and not think "home recording" every 3.5 seconds...
So two things will tell you when enough is enough: (a) a deadline that can't be shifted (b) a realisation that what you're doing isn't "adding value" any more... you're not improving your mix in any way, just changing it...
I find the line then draw the line at "no one will notice this". I ultimately only aim to please myself, but I do keep in mind what others will hear from a mix standpoint. When it gets to the point that I'm only entertaining myself with tweaks, I just stop and call it done and move on to the next one. It works for me because I can go back to old mixes and they still sound okay, so for me I must be doing something right.
heatmiser
mr. green christmas
I was almost never able to get better results by continually revisiting projects. Years ago I would create 6, 8 even 10 different mixes and try them out all over the place, but too often I would go back out of curiosity and A/B mix# 32 (or whatever) against the 1st mix, and I almost always thought the first one was better. I think it's called going down the rabbit hole or something? You can obsess over very specific "issues" and try to correct them, and then realize that what you just did impacted something else, so you adjust that, and then....on and on and on...
I say, try to have a good idea of the overall sound you want going in, get in that ballpark as quickly as possible. Sit on that mix a day or two, maybe remix once or twice and then live with it and move on. That sort of works for me generally. I guess it depends on how serious you are and what your goals are and stuff. For the average hobbyist though, it seems unwise to agonize over it too much if you can help it.
I say, try to have a good idea of the overall sound you want going in, get in that ballpark as quickly as possible. Sit on that mix a day or two, maybe remix once or twice and then live with it and move on. That sort of works for me generally. I guess it depends on how serious you are and what your goals are and stuff. For the average hobbyist though, it seems unwise to agonize over it too much if you can help it.
jimmys69
MOODerator
Hence this pic...
I tend to get things as close as possible right off. Then 3 rounds of 'get away from it' then return. If it not good by then...well the song/tones just suck bad.
Most of what I do is working for others, and not even recording here in my studio. I do a bunch of mixing and fixing of stuff for musicians that record in their own spaces.
It is always easier when I record here, though there are still the guys who have crappy tone/performance to begin with. Then I just do what I can. Blah blah..
I tend to get things as close as possible right off. Then 3 rounds of 'get away from it' then return. If it not good by then...well the song/tones just suck bad.
Most of what I do is working for others, and not even recording here in my studio. I do a bunch of mixing and fixing of stuff for musicians that record in their own spaces.
It is always easier when I record here, though there are still the guys who have crappy tone/performance to begin with. Then I just do what I can. Blah blah..
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ashcat_lt
Well-known member
Why does it need to be done? If you were renting a mix room and had a limited budget, the mix would be done when the money ran out. If you had a label breathing down your neck to deliver the mixes so that it can go to mastering so that it can be duped and distributed and on shelves by next Tuesday, it would be done when that deadline hit.
But most of us here don't really have any of that. The fact that you're even asking the question leads me to believe that you're working as a hobbyist, in your spare time, for your own gratification. That being the case, I think the process must be at least as important as the product. There is no real good reason you can't tweak the mix, second guess, re-track, re-mix forever.
Think maybe about other similar hobbies. If you were whittling something, how would you know that you were done? Could you get the fine details a little better? Could you maybe sand it just a bit smoother?
It's not a bad idea to set yourself a deadline and stick to it. Set yourself a release date and if possible find a way to hold yourself to it. Maybe organize a small party with your friends to listen to your masterpiece. Maybe commit yourself to giving it to somebody for a present on a birthday or holiday. Anything can probably help. Me, I have a long history up begging myself for extension after extension and then missing the final "drop dead" date and suing myself for breech of contract.
Lately I've gone to the extreme of not letting myself work on anything else at all until I finish whatever is in the queue. It's a bit of a motivation when I have an idea for a new song, but I can't even demo it out because I haven't finished this album that I was supposed to release last October.
But most of us here don't really have any of that. The fact that you're even asking the question leads me to believe that you're working as a hobbyist, in your spare time, for your own gratification. That being the case, I think the process must be at least as important as the product. There is no real good reason you can't tweak the mix, second guess, re-track, re-mix forever.
Think maybe about other similar hobbies. If you were whittling something, how would you know that you were done? Could you get the fine details a little better? Could you maybe sand it just a bit smoother?
It's not a bad idea to set yourself a deadline and stick to it. Set yourself a release date and if possible find a way to hold yourself to it. Maybe organize a small party with your friends to listen to your masterpiece. Maybe commit yourself to giving it to somebody for a present on a birthday or holiday. Anything can probably help. Me, I have a long history up begging myself for extension after extension and then missing the final "drop dead" date and suing myself for breech of contract.
Lately I've gone to the extreme of not letting myself work on anything else at all until I finish whatever is in the queue. It's a bit of a motivation when I have an idea for a new song, but I can't even demo it out because I haven't finished this album that I was supposed to release last October.
joel77
Studio 52
......... a realisation that what you're doing isn't "adding value" any more... you're not improving your mix in any way, just changing it...
That is a great answer!!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'll spend a lot of time "tweaking" when I'm doing edits, comps and basic pre-mixing, and I stop when I think it needs no more changes and it's just waiting for the final mix.
Then I walk away from it for maybe a week or two and work on something else that's at some other stage of the production...just to get the other song out of my head from the time I spent on it during the edit/comp/pre-mix stage.
When I decide to do the final mix....I'll set aside a weekend, spend one day getting all the processing/effects fine tuned, do a few rough mixes with some different setting, and then stop. The next day I'll listen to those mixes, make some adjustments based on what I'm hearing, and then I'll run maybe a half dozen mixes, doing the whole vocal up/down, lead up/down stuff....and I'm done. If I still not sure, I may leave it alone for a few days or the week, and do another half-dozen passes, and pick the few I like best.
Since I mix OTB from the DAW, I use a lot of rack gear and my console....so all the gear settings and patching is can't be saved in some file. I do write down settings and even take a few pics of the console settings....but basically, it's not something I want to have to keep coming back to week after week after week and resetting...plus I want to move on to something else, and I need to zero the console/gear to do that...so that helps me to NOT want to tinker endlessly and I've learned to finish a mix and move on. I've thought about going back and completely redoing some mixes....at some point...but I've yet to do that, and there's some I certainly would like to have done differently, buy I just rather move on to a new song than keep beating on something I already did.
I can see how ITB allows for endless/repeatable tinkering...so you have to just make a decision to stop at some point.
Then I walk away from it for maybe a week or two and work on something else that's at some other stage of the production...just to get the other song out of my head from the time I spent on it during the edit/comp/pre-mix stage.
When I decide to do the final mix....I'll set aside a weekend, spend one day getting all the processing/effects fine tuned, do a few rough mixes with some different setting, and then stop. The next day I'll listen to those mixes, make some adjustments based on what I'm hearing, and then I'll run maybe a half dozen mixes, doing the whole vocal up/down, lead up/down stuff....and I'm done. If I still not sure, I may leave it alone for a few days or the week, and do another half-dozen passes, and pick the few I like best.
Since I mix OTB from the DAW, I use a lot of rack gear and my console....so all the gear settings and patching is can't be saved in some file. I do write down settings and even take a few pics of the console settings....but basically, it's not something I want to have to keep coming back to week after week after week and resetting...plus I want to move on to something else, and I need to zero the console/gear to do that...so that helps me to NOT want to tinker endlessly and I've learned to finish a mix and move on. I've thought about going back and completely redoing some mixes....at some point...but I've yet to do that, and there's some I certainly would like to have done differently, buy I just rather move on to a new song than keep beating on something I already did.
I can see how ITB allows for endless/repeatable tinkering...so you have to just make a decision to stop at some point.
Mo Facta
Farts of Nature
I've learned to just leave a mix for what it is. A mix is only as good as the recording anyway so there comes a point where you just have to abandon ship.
I've worked really hard over the years to get into a mindset where I can make quick decisions and never look back. I HATE labouring hard over a mix; essentially trying my damnedest to polish that turd. If it started life as a turd, it shall die as a turd. So, for me, tracking is the part where I get all obsessive. If I don't get it right in tracking, then that's it - it's going to suck. Same goes for poor performances. I am actually so against over editing, gazillions of tracks, wanton and gratuitous Autotune, drum replacement even though sometimes I'm forced to do all of it for either 1. bad tracking or 2. shit performances.
I think we're pretty hard on ourselves sometimes and we take on the shortcomings of a recording that are out of our control, such as bad playing, and expect ourselves to work magic. You have to just call it what it is and move on. The more time you spend labouring over a mix that never pleases you, the less time you have to get on with other recordings and mixes that may give you the opportunity to be better.
My 2c.
Cheers
I've worked really hard over the years to get into a mindset where I can make quick decisions and never look back. I HATE labouring hard over a mix; essentially trying my damnedest to polish that turd. If it started life as a turd, it shall die as a turd. So, for me, tracking is the part where I get all obsessive. If I don't get it right in tracking, then that's it - it's going to suck. Same goes for poor performances. I am actually so against over editing, gazillions of tracks, wanton and gratuitous Autotune, drum replacement even though sometimes I'm forced to do all of it for either 1. bad tracking or 2. shit performances.
I think we're pretty hard on ourselves sometimes and we take on the shortcomings of a recording that are out of our control, such as bad playing, and expect ourselves to work magic. You have to just call it what it is and move on. The more time you spend labouring over a mix that never pleases you, the less time you have to get on with other recordings and mixes that may give you the opportunity to be better.
My 2c.
Cheers
This is something I've thought about a lot (and really just that, I haven't come to any conclusions!) In fact, I've been thinking about it a lot recently as I've got an album to finish. We've been working on it since summer and really want to get it finished and out soon. We keep going back and re recording things and there's definitely a feeling of 'when is is right? when is it good enough to be the final take?' In terms of recording, I tend to make rough mixes (just faders up really) along the way and listen to them until I can't hear anything that jumps out.
When it comes to mixing (which hasn't started on this album yet) I clear the desk and start mixing. I do it in stages, mix then have a break for a while and repeat that a few times. When I'm happy with how it sounds after a couple of hours break I'll mix it. Then I listen a couple of days later on different systems. If nothing jumps out and it all sounds pretty good, I leave it. If not, I go back and mix it again. I'm fairly happy with the results I get that way but I still get the feeling of 'maybe it could be better'.
When it comes to mixing (which hasn't started on this album yet) I clear the desk and start mixing. I do it in stages, mix then have a break for a while and repeat that a few times. When I'm happy with how it sounds after a couple of hours break I'll mix it. Then I listen a couple of days later on different systems. If nothing jumps out and it all sounds pretty good, I leave it. If not, I go back and mix it again. I'm fairly happy with the results I get that way but I still get the feeling of 'maybe it could be better'.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
You'll only know that when you feel it is......
VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
The thing that keeps me from tweaking mixes ad-infinitum is that I've got other songs to do! Can't spend all my time on just one song.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I don't really have a sound vision in mind before I've completed a song. I have a series of ideas and mix time for me is making sense of everything that has gone down. I used to be of the mind that everything tracked had to be part of the mix but then of course, I'd discover that at some parts, there'd be real clashes, whether melodically, harmonically or rhythmically or even worse, too many instruments drowning the voice.
I mix a song until it sounds like something sonically that makes sense to me. It differs from song to song because in my songs, there's no set instrumental format. I don't go with the same instruments each time so in a way that makes life hard for me because I'm nearly always approaching things newly. If I just did vocals, two guitars, bass and drums or vocals, guitar, keyboards, bass and drums, I'd certainly have an easier time if not an easy one.
On the other hand, that's part of the fun for me in mixing. It used to be a chore and something of a nightmare, but teasing out a sonically logical outcome is my goal. In that, it's actually not difficult to know when to stop. If I could complete a mix in 10 minutes, I would. Endless tweaking is not
my idea of a joyous life........
I mix a song until it sounds like something sonically that makes sense to me. It differs from song to song because in my songs, there's no set instrumental format. I don't go with the same instruments each time so in a way that makes life hard for me because I'm nearly always approaching things newly. If I just did vocals, two guitars, bass and drums or vocals, guitar, keyboards, bass and drums, I'd certainly have an easier time if not an easy one.
On the other hand, that's part of the fun for me in mixing. It used to be a chore and something of a nightmare, but teasing out a sonically logical outcome is my goal. In that, it's actually not difficult to know when to stop. If I could complete a mix in 10 minutes, I would. Endless tweaking is not
my idea of a joyous life........
I've had to learn to let go and just release things, even when I'm not 100% happy, it's tough but you've got to say bye and move on to the next mix. A lot of the poop is done in tracking, so I obsess over getting that right like mr mofact, a tird becomes a larger tird when compressed, a small diamond becomes a large one when compressed and becomes priceless rare and hard to steal. The tird stealers know this and laugh out loud HAHAHA
mjbphotos
Moderator
Knowing how you WANT it to sound is a big factor. I mix, give it a rest, listen and remix. Then on to the next song, and then the next. When I've got 3-4 (or more) songs to this stage, I listen to them all in a row, on multiple systems, making notes on what needs to change, if anything, in each one. That way I am bringing them together more in preparation for the mastering. A deadline is a good idea.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I can dig that. There's a thread running that asks if when people write songs they hear the sound or the song which is kind of related.
For me the mix is like cooking a meal. I don't know exactly how I want it to taste but I do have an idea and I certainly know how I don't want it to turn out !