How do you go about 'carving a space' for vocals in a mix?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Whoopysnorp
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doulos said:
i do bleive the question concerned eq rather then recording techniques but id love to hear your feed back on the subject
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The better your recording technique (ie, proper tracking, proper mic'ing, proper mic placement, attention to gain structure and signal chain), the less you need ANY EQ........ period.

And for someone who claims to have a lot of studio time under their belt, you sure ask some pretty basic questions that bely having the experience you say you do......... (for example -- mastering for MP3.... what the hell is that??? you don't master for MP3, you master a final mix period, THEN convert to MP3 as needed.........)

And I've heard a sample mix of yours, Doulos.... not horrible, but definitely far below what I consider an experienced engineer to be producing............

I'm not trying to insult you Doulos -- just don't play games... you don't sound as experienced as you say you are and you're spouting misleadig information... there's no shame in being a rookie just learning the ropes -- but there's no honour in pretending to be something you are not!
 
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geekgurl said:
...Then when I finally get MP3s up you can all listen and bash me and say how much my mixes suck. :)...
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:) We wait with baited breath geekgurl, I'd really like to hear some of your stuff.
 
Whoopysnorp,

Honestly I have become extremly occupied and Lazy....
In my good old days I would sit down and write you a long post
but alike blue bear I have written to many and seem to have lost some of my energy so I apologise in advance.

I'll give you some tips and let the rest of the guys take it from there.

It all starts as Blue Bear said. Mic choice to pre choice to mic positioning and room acoustics. Asumming you cant change some of those factors....

Don't jump first on the Eq. Get it sounding right at the recording process.

A suggestion somebody gave you already but to fine tune it....

Compression- Your mind needs to focus on the vocals to bring it out. If they appear and disapear you will not only lose some of the vocals but you will have a hard time focusing on them.
Compression doesnt always mean to boost levels. You can compress with out touching the gain button. To bring the vocals to a focus you can balance out the level (as long as you dont kill the dynamics) and bring it into focus and they will now stay "stick out" better. It's what we call "boxing in"

Extremly overlooked but the first priority before you touch any processing. The "Fader". It has to sit at the right level or it will overpower (making your mix sound dwarfy and wimpy) or underpower (making your vocals drown). Of course its also a stylitic issue.

People mention making space by EQ but making space is also the right choice of reverb..the amount....the predelay....and more.
Also - You might cut or boost with Eq on your vocals till your blue in the face but if a different instrument is covered with effects like reverb or delay it can still dominate your vocals.

Dont be fooled by the doubling trick to bring out vocals. In many cases it can also phase your vocals and thin them out. For some people it works. IMHO For many it doesnt.

If you can get the drums and bass to sit together and bring in the vocals with them and all is in place. BANG ! your 90% done.
Work on those three elements. Dont worry about guitars yet or pads. Focus on Kit -Bass-Vocals.

Last Eq - yes it's also a solution but not the first and tends to damage as well as help. It's sort of a trade of. At first try a bit to work around it and make sure that when you do Eq to care for the body of the vocals. There isnt any instrument as sensetive to Eq changes like Vocals - the most natural instrument. You make a change here, and it is clear like a bell that you changed something that was natural.
Others spoke about making space by cutting other elemnts in the mix so I leave it to them to explain to you.

Good Luck
 
wow bue bear heh what a way to put me in my place huh? Exsperenced engineers take many many many years to acomplish. I've been at it for 6 years and your right i need to let my ears mature, However your recording techniques sound like mine. Hotest signal chain you can if you dont like the sound change anything but the eq, as clean as posible and let your ears do the work. Listen, listen, listen and if you consider changing anything listen again lol Quite the digital purist based on what ive heard and your mixes are by what i can hear surpas mine all this is true and every thing you have said is also true. Your advice is the best i however am not a "rookie" im just working with what i have at home when im in a real studio it sounds better and my post on mp3 mastering if you read was stating just what you said blue bear it dosent make sence! but mp3 mix clinic didnt like that they told me to bring it here. I wont bother with that again top notch advice you gave the guy. :) oh btw i've kind of got a big head cause my last album sold 2,000 coppies and was recorded all but drums in an 12 by 14 room my back bed room and my demo was played for10 thosand ppl at a major event called soulstock so thak you very much for shrinking it for me smiles
 
So anyway Bear,

I can't figure out if this doulos dude has just conceded or told you to stuff it. What's your guess?

lou
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
So anyway Bear,

I can't figure out if this doulos dude has just conceded or told you to stuff it. What's your guess?

lou
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haha, I couldn't tell either.
His post has "Too many notes, just...cut a few... and it'll be perfect"
 
Thanks for the advice, Shailat and others. I always compress vocals a little bit, so that was the first thing I reached for. I think a problem I'm having is the guitar needs to be retracked. It's too thin; I'm going to mic it better and use a different guitar. That ought to help me out.
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
So anyway Bear,

I can't figure out if this doulos dude has just conceded or told you to stuff it. What's your guess?

lou
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I think a bit 'o both! ;)

I'm not too worried about it -- he'll either hang himself with stupidity or he'll prove himself eventually....!

Either way, he definitely needs a few grammar/communication lessons!

:D :D
 
everyone has their role...

And this is mine, right?

Doulos!! Are you Illiterate?? It really makes it hard for people to take you seriously when you cant put a sentence together. And its 'SENSE'. With an 'S'. I usually wouldn't nitpick spelling.. but you consistently use the wrong one. If you are going to say someone 'doesnt make sence' ..... I'm immediately going to think you are an idiot. So remember... grammar pays!

And I hope you were joking about your 2000 copies remark....cuz my kid brother could sell that many discs, man! Get a grip. And start to use periods, and paragraphs.. if you want people to listen to you.


good times!

xoxo

ps.. oh..dont bother with a witty comeback.. because I dont really care.;)
 
Re: everyone has their role...

camn said:

ps.. oh..dont bother with a witty comeback.. because I dont really care.;)
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And I'm sure you wouldn't understand it, anyway.

Christopher
 
Canm; How Do I hire your Little Brother.

I am curious on what method that makes that 2000 records sold easy. If it works Im in debt to you dude.
 
i had to look that word up lol ive heard blue bear's work i respect his ears. Im saying im not the best cause of my gear i understand theory but im always learning. Hes doing a lot better then me and i was in no ways sarcastic and hes given me a higher level of quality to reach for and i soooooooooooo appreciate that that was what i was looking for! thanks again blue bear
 
no i wasnt kidding about the 2000 cds remark! Lets do the math
2,000 cd times oh10 bucks a cd not to mention my cd is in 2 major book stores in its genre christian music and it was my first cd ive eaver released from my gear digi 001 20 bit digital 8 buss 3 mics akg c2000b 3000b 1000s a hand full of outboard gear and a 12 by 14 room thats pretty decent id say for being 21! I made over 6,000 dollars in the 200 hr project and i payed off all my gear and now ive come here to up the anti if you will of my recordings by listening to those like blue bear. Who will drive me farther in not only my ears my engineering but also my quality!
 
darrin it was one thing that made it work a killer booking agent who took charge of everything after we finished the cd she was the booking agent for third day and jars of clay and took the band very far as far as indy music is concerned :)
 
High!

It's funny I just thought about about mentioning it, but then I read Shailat's post (somewhere on the first page): it may really be that you are looking for an ambience setting rather than for eqing or compressing.

I had a similar problem: my vocals somehow would seem to narrow... When turning the verbs louder everything would mudden up (remember me doing punk rock). So I used mainly early reflections for the ambience and a stereo hard panned delay fitting to the song tempo. I think it repeated about every 1/8 and the panning differed by a 1/16. Turned that delay wayyy back until I almost couldn't hear it. WOW there was the ceiling of the room opening. If that is what you mean with air - mess with ambience...

Ciao

Axel
 
Michael Jones said:

haha, I couldn't tell either.
His post has "Too many notes, just...cut a few... and it'll be perfect"
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"Which notes did you have in mind, your Majesty?"

Sorry, couldn't help quote it back. Love that movie!

And now, back to your regularly scheduled program ...
 
Hey doulos,

Not a bad comeback. Not bad at all. You just might be an all right kind of guy. Just give us one break ok? Use a few periods.

:D

lou
 
I noticed that with a nice mic, a nice preamp, and good converters, I dont have to create space. In fact, I have the opposite of your problem. I want the vocals to be less real, and mesh more with the music.
 
riffing said:


"Which notes did you have in mind, your Majesty?"

Sorry, couldn't help quote it back. Love that movie!

And now, back to your regularly scheduled program ...
Click to expand...
Yeah, its a great movie, I love that quote! We use it all the time now, buds and I.
 
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