How bad is Studio Projects quality control

  • Thread starter Thread starter DJL
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I'm going to try to help DJL explain his argument, so perhaps we can understand it better...because right now, I'm having some trouble.

DJL: Where did this sudden thought come from? If you give us some reasoning behind your statement, I for one would be much more welcoming of your radical view.

Are we starting to see the picture of what's really going on yet? If not, don't worry, I'll soon be coloring in the rest of the numbers so you can see the whole picture.

It's not going to help your case if you keep your evidence from view...if you've got some proof, let's see it. Otherwise, let's drop it!

-Graham
http://www.hr-faq.org
 
grahamware, please bare with me my friend, I have the proof sitting right here in front of me with 3 (red dot) B3's, but there is more to the whole picture that just the bogus colored dots and inconsistent output levels.
 
DJL said:
Harvey has pointed out that there is a possible variation span of more than 4dB difference between the output levels of the Studio Projects microphones.
That is NOT what I said. Please do not make up your own facts and ascribe them to me.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
That is NOT what I said. Please do not make up your own facts and ascribe them to me.

Ok then, what is the possible dB output level variation span of a Studio Projects B3 microphone? Also, what do you think about the colored dot system that PMI is telling people to use to "match" their Studio Projects microphones with? Thanks
 
Right. Sheer output levels doesn't mean that their matched. Feeding pink noise into a C1 and, say, a Schoeps Collette with Cardioid head could result in the same output levels, but they'd be far, far from a matched pair.

So you're saying that they sound different. If that's what you wanted to say, you should have been a lot more detailed than simply saying the colored dot system hides a poor qc system. A single comment like your first post in this thread just isn't very helpful. OTOH, if you started off this thread with a post about your three B3s, how they sound, and how this and other things brought you to a certain revelation about SP/PMI, I'm sure people would respond in a much more positive manner. And if there is indeed more than just dots and output levels, then reveal that as well. You can never have too much information in something like this. Your first post said that the colored dot system hides poor quality control. Now you're saying that the dot system is "bogus"...an entirely different statement.

If you're so certain that you've got the winning hand, it doesn't help you if you don't show the rest of the table your cards.
 
I thought this thread would be dead by this morning.
alanhyatt said:
The B1's will work very well as overhead pairs. To match them, just ask your dealer to sell you two mics that have the same color dot on the front packaging. Then you will have about as close of a match as you can get these days. The key is getting two of the same color dots.

<snip>
Alan does not call them "matched" an in "matched pairs" - he just says they will be a close match - maybe just semantics, but nothing to base a whole rant on.


DJL said:
Harvey has pointed out that there is a possible variation span of more than 4dB difference between the output levels of the Studio Projects microphones.

Harvey Gerst said:
That's a span of 4dB of possible variation between any two SP mics.

Neumann U87s have a guaranteed variation of no more than +/- 2dB from their published curve. That's a span of 4dB possible variation between any two U87 mics.

Let me put the two key sentences together for you, just in case you missed it:

There is a possible variation of 4 dB between 2 U87 mics.
There is a possible variation of 4 dB between 2 SP mics.

DJL. did you read Harvey's post? Did you understand it?
At least SP has made it possible to buy 2 mics that are more closely matched in sensitivity than any two random U87's, though I suppose you could buy 10 or 20 U87's and match them yourself.
 
DJL said:
Ok then, what is the possible dB output level variation span of a Studio Projects B3 microphone? Also, what do you think about the colored dot system that PMI is telling people to use to "matching" their Studio Projects microphones with? Thanks

Most microphone output level specifications are taken at 1,000 Hz, at some nominal distortion level, with a fixed signal, generated from a standard calibration source. I've covered all of this before in the big thread, so I won't repeat myself in this thread.

Since PMI only seems to offer the C4's as a matched pair, they are simply providing a service to their customers by pointing out which mics will be similar in output levels.

Is it matching? No, that would cost a lot more to do. Do I have a problem with Alan putting color dots on his mics? No. Would I use them to match mics? It would be as good a starting point as any. The rest of the matching process would be more complex.

I do have a method that I came up with years ago for matching microphones and loudspeakers to within 1 dB (or closer) in a matter of a few seconds without the need of expensive testing equipment, but I've only shared that technique with one manufacturer.

But my original objection still stands: I did NOT say "there is a possible variation span of more than 4dB difference between the output levels of the Studio Projects microphones". You made that up and claimed it was a quote from me, which you know is untrue.

You started by claiming that the color tags were indicative of poor QC, but I've pointed out that Neumann has the SAME range of permissable variation. Now, you've switched arguments to imply that PMI is passing off these dots as a substitute for absolute matched microphones.

Don't you realize how silly your arguments sound? Nobody believes Alan is trying to sell these as "matched microphones", except for the standard output level measurements, which occur at one frequency only. Individual capsules will vary in frequency response over the entire audio range, and matching as many points as possible adds greatly to the cost.

Your attempts to hold Alan's mics to a higher standard than even Neumann is pathetic. The SP's are decent mics for the price, and useful in many situations - and that's all they are.

If you want absolutely matched mics from anybody, be prepared to pay a lot extra for that service. And nobody here believes otherwise.

This is a shameful thread, with a bogus and misleading subject line, and I, for one, am finished with it.
 
One thing that can be done is for everyone to stop arguing with the assclown and let this thread die off.........
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Most microphone output level specifications are taken at 1,000 Hz, at some nominal distortion level, with a fixed signal, generated from a standard calibration source. I've covered all of this before in the big thread, so I won't repeat myself in this thread.

Since PMI only seems to offer the C4's as a matched pair, they are simply providing a service to their customers by pointing out which mics will be similar in output levels.

Is it matching? No, that would cost a lot more to do. Do I have a problem with Alan putting color dots on his mics? No. Would I use them to match mics? It would be as good a starting point as any. The rest of the matching process would be more complex.

I do have a method that I came up with years ago for matching microphones and loudspeakers to within 1 dB (or closer) in a matter of a few seconds without the need of expensive testing equipment, but I've only shared that technique with one manufacturer.

But my original objection still stands: I did NOT say "there is a possible variation span of more than 4dB difference between the output levels of the Studio Projects microphones". You made that up and claimed it was a quote from me, which you know is untrue.

You started by claiming that the color tags were indicative of poor QC, but I've pointed out that Neumann has the SAME range of permissable variation. Now, you've switched arguments to imply that PMI is passing off these dots as a substitute for absolute matched microphones.

Don't you realize how silly your arguments sound? Nobody believes Alan is trying to sell these as "matched microphones", except for the standard output level measurements, which occur at one frequency only. Individual capsules will vary in frequency response over the entire audio range, and matching as many points as possible adds greatly to the cost.

Your attempts to hold Alan's mics to a higher standard than even Neumann is pathetic. The SP's are decent mics for the price, and useful in many situations - and that's all they are.

If you want absolutely matched mics from anybody, be prepared to pay a lot extra for that service. And nobody here believes otherwise.

This is a shameful thread, with a bogus and misleading subject line, and I, for one, am finished with it.

Thank you Harvey, now that I know the Studio Projects microphones are NOT "MATCHED" not even the same model numbers with the same colored dots, that explains a lot. Buy the way, I can match the output levels by just turning the trim/gain knobs, so what good are the colored dots anyway? lol. Oh, and I guess Alan never really said the Studio Projects C4's or LSD-2 capsules were really "MATCHED PAIRS" either then.

alanhyatt said:
Well most manufacturers accept a +/- 2db sensitivity spec. The problem is, there can be a 4db difference between two mics. Even Neumann has this spec on many models.

One way I found to resolve the problem was to split the tested capsules into three sensitivity classes and code them with a color. For example, a capsule that has a spec of:

-35dB +/-1dB, is marked by a green dot on the packaging
-36~-37dB, is marked by a black dot on the packaging
-33~-34dB, is marked by a red dot on the packaging

This way to get a matched pair, you simply buy two mics with the same code or color dot on the outside of the packaging, and you are within 1dB.

As for the LSD-2, it is being done for you within a spec of 1/2 db, so they are about as close as you are going to get. I hope that helps.
 
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crazydoc said:
I thought this thread would be dead by this morning.

Alan does not call them "matched" an in "matched pairs" - he just says they will be a close match - maybe just semantics, but nothing to base a whole rant on.

Yeah, Alan has called them "matched pairs", see my post above this one.
 
Sklathill, yeah the (red dot) B3's I have here are NOT the same. Thanks
 
But DJL, why are you mentioning this? Are you intentionally trying to alienate every other member in the forum? I don't think anyone is out to get you, but you seem to think Hyatt, in his 'evil microphone laboratory' is trying to trip you, and all other bargain searchers up!

What, exactly, are you expecting from budget microphones?! They aren't Neumanns. If you're trying to convince us all that Hyatt may have lied in his posts, fine. I don't agree, but Alan has been gone. For two months.

What are technical specs to home reccers, anyway? If it sounds good, USE IT. If you don't like it, RETURN IT. I just don't see what the issue is! $80 microphones are $80 microphones, and you don't have to spend a damned cent.

This is trivial, and I don't know what the issue is. So get down from your soap box and let's write about something constructive instead of making this ridiculous thread even longer...
 
Here's something Harvey posted a while back that you all may find as helpful as I have.


Matching microphones by Harvey Gerst

How to 'audition' a microphone before buying
In another post a user was lamenting the poor QC measures used in Russia (Oktava) and China (everyone else it seems). But he noted that you could paw through the inventory and find a 'good one'.

Okay.

How?

How do you objectively evaluate a mic at a store to determine whether or not the factory f'd it up or did it right? Is this talent and experience or is it something (hope hope) more objective.
=============================================

Actually, there are some tricks you can do that will get you close to finding the best mics out of a batch, but it would require going into the store when you and the store both have some free time. Asking to test mics in a busy store on a Saturday is NOT a good idea, for example.

Give me a few days to come up with some simple tests using headphones, keys, store noises, mixer meters, etc. It will help you find the "best" of the bunch, match a pair of mics (which may not be the best but they'll match), find the loudest, or the most quiet of the bunch.

Interesting challenge - how to test mics in a store without test gear of any kind.
==========================================

I have a band coming in in a little while, so I'm gonna hafta do this in sections.

Stuff you'll need to bring with you

One small Post-It Pad (the really small one)
One key ring, with at least 5 to 15 assorted keys on it.
Chromatic tuner with built-in speaker.
A decent set of headphones.
Small note pad.

Culling the herd

Assuming you've become friends with the mic salesman, he's dragged out every unit he has in stock of the same model, including the one on display. You'll need to get the use of a mixer that has phantom power, some kind of metering on it, and a headphone output jack. Let's say you have 12 mics to test. Take the post-it pad and number each mic, 1 thru 12.

Plug the first mic in, and turn on the mixer. Adjust the preamp gain to maximum, and bring up the channel slider till the store's background noise lights up the first 3 or 4 segments of the channel meter (or any meter on the mixer). Note the number of segments showing on the meter and put that number right on the mic's post-it paper. (It will be a number between, let's say 2 and 6.)

Go thru all the mics (without changing any settings) and write down the number of segments that show for each mic on the mic's post-it. As you do this testing, listen to each mic and listen for anything strange (lots of noise, hum, hiss, crackle, weird honking tone, etc.), and note that on your notepad. If you run across any obviously bad mics, remove the post-it paper from that mic and take that mic out of the tests.

As you test them, try to roughly pair up mics (mics that have the same segment readings and sound similar to you), and put those mics together. You should wind up with about 4 piles of mics; those with high segment readings, those with medium segment readings, those with low segment readings, and a pile of defective mics that hum, buzz, crackle, honk, or don't work at all.

Ok, congratulations. You've just completed test one. You've tested all the mics for defects, and measured the mics sensitivity. You've also done some preliminary rough matching.

I'll try to get to the next step (the dreaded "jangling keys" test) a little later today. Hang in there.
=============================================

It's not a waste of my time, and you brought up some interesting points. Mainly, this thread is about buying budget mics (that are well known for varying degrees of quality control), but it might also help you spot the best of 3 "high dollar" mics in a more upscale store.

It's actually helps the store that sells these cheap mics, since you're going to be doing extra quality control on their behalf. And when you're finished, they'll have some mics they can sell as matched pairs, and some that need to go in for repair (rather than wait for a pissed off customer to return it).

If the salesman is interested enough, you'll actually teach him some things that will help him sell more mics. But you hafta catch them at a really slow point in the day. So the salesman knows that you're gonna be buying at least two mics from him, so he doesn't have anything to lose by playing along.
=============================================

Okay, Part Two - Now where the hell were we?
Oh yeah. So we have our three good piles of mics and one "to dump" pile. Too bad we don't have more time or we could try switching out capsules to see if that fixes any of them, or testing the weird pile by swapping their capsules with some known good ones (to find any good capsules and/or bodies in the bad pile), but we'll just work with what we have - the 3 "good" piles, sorted by output levels.

The Dreaded "Key Jangle" Test

What's so scary about this? Think of a tamborine at point blank range. Those little keys put out a ton of high frequency energy, enough to overload most mics if you get right up on the mic. And that's what we're gonna do, jangle the keys and listen for any severe distortion in the mic.

Make sure you're not clipping anything in the mixer and leave at least 6 to 10dB of headroom, so you're sure it's coming from just the mic. Start with the keys up close, and jangle.

Keep moving the keys away from the mic till any distortion is gone, and mark down how far away the keys were when the distortion disappeared. That number when converted (we'll talk about that later) tells you the Maximum SPL level for each mic you test. Pretty cool, huh?

Name That Tone

Now it's time to do some serious listening for tonal balance and smoothness in response. We'll use the chromatic tuner you brought with to set all the mics to the same level. Set the tuner to put out A440. If your tuner will play a range of notes, that's even better. Bb (one octave above A440) is around 1,000Hz - a good point to set the levels to.

Put the mic right on the speaker in the tuner and adjust the channel level slider till the signal reads 0 on the meter. Make a note of the dB number (along side the channel slider) on the post-it sheet for that mic, or in your notepad. The whole point here is to match levels as close as possible, so that you're hearing just tonal differences between mics, not volume differences.

Use The Force, Luke

Take a little break and give your ears a rest. I'm gonna take a break right now and I'll be back with the final wrap-up section.
=========================================

Ok, now we're actually gonna listen to stuff. Remember in the last section, I told you to make a note of the dB number (along side the channel slider) on the post-it sheet for each mic, or in your notepad? Well, here's where we use that number.

Plug in the first mic, and set the channel fader to that number. Adjust the headphone level or the mixer's master level to a comfortable volume and listen to the sound. Listen? Listen to what?

First of all, point the mic into the room, and listen to the room noises in the store, people talking in the distance, the sounds of fans or air conditioning, the ambient room noise. Does it sound different to you than listening without the headphones? What's different about it?

Notice any hollow sounds, like you're in a tunnel? Those sounds are mid range peaks. Any rumbling? You know what that is. Anything sound overly bright and "VERY detailed"? Those are probably high frequency peaks.

Turn the mic around and talk into it from around 12" away, holding it at eye level. Again listen for the same strangeness mentioned above. As you talk bring it in closer to your eyes till it's about 3" away. Did it bring up the bass in your voice nicely or is it kinda boomy? Make notes of your impressions, and go on to the next mic. Remeber to set the channel slider to the appropriate number for each mic, to keep the levels all the same.

After you've done the same tests for each mic, you should wind up with a few mics that sounded very neutral, or pleasing to your ear.

If the dB numbers on the mics are the same on the mics that you like, you have a matched set. If the dB numbers are different, but they sound the same, it's still a matched set, but with different sensitivities - no big deal.

If there are several sets of mics, buy the two with the lowest dB markings, if possible. The lower numbers mean you had to turn those down the most because they were the most sensitive mics.

After you've sorted them into pairs, check the distance number you wrote down for the key jangle test. Chances are that on mics with the same sensitivity, the distances will be about the same. If the written distortion distance of one mic is 1/2 or 2X the written distance of the other mic, that's cool. It means the MAX SPL distortion levels are within 3dB of each other.

If the mixer has a phase reversal switch on each channel (it's a polarity switch really), plug the two mics you like into the mixer and flip the polarity switch on one of the mics. Put the mics side by side and point them at the same spot. With the gain trim control cranked all the way on each channel, turn up one slider till you hear the background noise really loud.

Now bring up the slider on the second channel. As the second slider approaches the same level as the first slider, the sound will start to disappear. If the mics are really matched well, the sound will almost completely disappear at one point. What's left is the slight frequency response differences between the two mics.

As a final check, listen to your choices against the best similar mic in the store and see how close they sound to each other. If you're testing Oktava MC012s, try your chosen set against a Neumann KM184. Listen to the differences. If the Neumann sounds more like one of the sets you passed up buying, you might wanna reconsider your choice. Remeber, you're looking for a mic pair for guitar and misc. stuff, not just voice.

So now, you've matched the mics into mic pairs, and measured them all for sensitivity, frequency response, distortion, and noise - all without any fancy test equipment, or complicated procedures. And you've got the best two of those mics for yourself.

That's about it. Was that easy enough? After a while, you can put on a pair of headphones and just listen to ambient noise and tell a lot about a mic's characteristics, but it takes a bit of practice. Try testing the mics you already own this way and see if your test conclusions match your own personal experience using these mics. The key is to try and avoid any personal biases while testing; keep an open mind and try to listen objectively.
-------------------------------------

Thanks Harvey
 
DJL said:
grahamware, please bare with me my friend, I have the proof sitting right here in front of me with 3 (red dot) B3's, but there is more to the whole picture that just the bogus colored dots and inconsistent output levels.
So, let me guess… You’ve put two “red dot” B3s up side by side, reversed one’s polarity and ran them through your expensive two channel mic pre with “calibrated” gains (i.e. white noise through both with one side reversed and gains adjusted so that they measure completely null with a calibrated spectrum analyzer). Next you used a white noise source through a very good monitor speaker, and recorded a graph of the spectrum on a calibrated spectrum analyzer, and there were peaks greater than 2dB?
 
While you were off in France, we were stranded in the British Isles.
Left to fall apart amongst your passports and your files.
We never asked for miracles, but they were our concern.
Did you really think we'd sit it out and wait for your return?

I don't want to argue. I ain't gonna budge.
Won't you take this number down before you call up the judge?
I don't want to argue. There's nothing to say.
Get me out of your starry eyes and be on your way!

While you were on the beach, were you dreaming all about your share?
Planning to invest it all to cover wear and tear?
We paid for all the phone calls. The money's off the shelf.
Don't you know that while you're gone away, I've got to help myself?

I don't want to argue. I ain't gonna budge.
Won't you take this number down before you call up the judge?
I don't want to argue. There's nothing to say.
Get me out of your starry eyes and be on your way!

While you were in the pool, we were meeting with the boys upstairs,
Talking to the money men, and carrying out affairs.
We had no time for cocktails, or working up a tan.
The boys have all been spoken to. The writ has hit the fan.

I don't want to argue. I ain't gonna budge.
Won't you take this number down before you call up

Sorry. I just felt like it :p
 
Flatpicker, I'm using the Great River MP-2NV with Tannoy PM-6' monitors.
 
DJL said:
Here's something Harvey posted a while back that you all may find as helpful as I have...
Harvey’s method may be fine for messing around at Guitar Center, but as per my last post, I need way more concrete proof than that. This is one of those things that can be measured, so let's see those calibrated test and measurements.
 
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