Home Recording's Dirty Little Secret

[mwthompson]

What compression settings would you recommend for a 9am beer fart? I feel one coming on, and I'm standing in the control room.

Not too much. Too much compression and you'll shit your pants.

 

[Bob's Mods]

I am going to bring up another subject being that it is related to getting super quality recordings on a modest home rig....and this is the subject of guitar distortion. It has been a pain in the butt trying to find a very good guitar distortion....on a budget. Most, if not all, whether they are software based, or come out of a pedal or modeler amp or regular (lower cost) guitar amp all just plain suck. Many just don't sound right. Most sound like a buzz saw. They really do not record well at all. Its not until you record them and play them back do you hear how awful they can sound. Getting great crunch and high gain on a budget is a nighmare. The software I've tried blows. The modelers are a joke. The Marshall MGs sound like a buzz saw when recorded. Its "almost" hopeless.

To step up to studio great sound when it comes to distortion, you've got to have top notch gear. I once borrowed a friends Mesa Boogie Mark IV and that amp sang so sweetly. It recorded fabulously. Its a real deal tube amp. I never sounded so good as with that amp but at over a $1k price tag, its off the list. Part of getting a super commercial sound is not just decent recording gear and knowing how to use it but also decent instruments and amps. I have found a way to mimic a decent crunch using an MXR distortion III and mixing it with the Voxengo Boogex. A free amp plugin simulator. I plug the MXR in direct. Nothing else I've tried on the budget side works for me other than the MXR and Boogex.

Bob

 

[mshilarious]

Well, I just use a plug (UAD Nigel), it's a bit silly but workable. But I also built a small tube amp (well really a mod). The Valve Jr. is popular enough that with mods I think you should be able to get there.

 

[Bulls Hit]

... but the whole DAW and plugin insanity is another issue. It’s mostly horse feathers and moonbeams. Yes it is a fraud that has taken many a novice for a ride.

But we're having fun!

One can’t simply run something through an algorithm and expect to have all the nuances of the hardware device that inspired it.

Tell that to UA. Have your heard their 1176/la2a/1073/SPL etc. emulations?

 

[TerraMortim]

guitar rig 2 and Logic's Guitar Amp Pro are pretty good.

 

[Bob's Mods]

I just checked out Guitar Rig 3. That looks cool. 300 bucks though. I dislike paying lots of money for software because most do not allow you to resell your license if you want to move on. You basically eat it like I did with the Mic Modeler. GR 3 does look interesting...if it can deliver. I really am not interested in a million sounds just a few great sounding sounds. This thing looks like you could spend hours just playing with all the toys...and thats not really a bad thing I suppose. Does it really sound authentic? NI is one company that does do great software.

Bob

 

[robin watson]

This Beck guy and his merry band of idiots have the Analog Only section of this BBS all sewn up. No use arguing with him as he has enough on his hands with the newbies tearing them up over these silly analog points. They keep trying to argue that a porta- studio is comparable with a 2" 24 track Studer!

He hates digital and will infect this place. Leave him in the Analog Only section and go there to find out exactly how he screws you by basically having the whole group of morons trash you.

And, no I am not kidding at all.

If it's the guy I'm thinking you are refering to, he also appears to have a rather unhealthy obsession with 'sticky' tape. But each to their own, I suppose!

 

[robin watson]

normally beer farts are compressed with a slow attack and long release, just to get the initial thunder and draw it out a bit. try 3:1 with a soft knee (unless you really have to push that sumbitch out in which, a hard knee will clean you out quicker'n a priest on sunday) ... just plug one end into your asshole and the other end up one of your nostrils and you'll do swimmingly.

Sounds like I'll need a TRS Y-connector for that, right? Should I go balanced or unbalanced, is it the tip or ring that should be Hot, and where does my sleeve come into it?

 

[Beck]

But we're having fun!

So was Truman … but something about the world he had always taken for granted started to bug him… things didn’t add up.

Whenever, someone or something made him question his reality, his best buddy, Marlon, would show up right on time with a six pack of beer to help bring him back down.

These forums are much the same way. There’s a whole world of recording outside this cyber reality and it’s always been there. The PC-centric world of these forums can be very small and dogmatic. In here digital can do anything.

Then someone like me drops by and a few wonder if they are missing something that could bring their music to a new level. But just when you’re getting interested in what might lie beyond what you think you know, one of your buddies chimes in carrying his six-pack,

“But what about Nyquist?” he says, or “Have you heard the such & such VST? You must not have, because if you did you wouldn’t question the fact that digital can emulate everything we need.

Truman, buddy… no need to leave Seahaven. We got it all right here… Would I lie to you, and would those nice vendors, manufacturer reps, and others selling products and services on these forums lie to us? Course not. Psst! Have another brewski.”

 

[robin watson]

Unfortunately I dont know much about compression, sorry. However, it is crucial that you use analog tape. Digital wont capture the warmth and moisture of the aforementioned anal vapor.

Someone else said a similar thing, but added that if I increase my number of bits, I could use multi-channel compression. Awe, I give up. I'm starting to sound like that Walters guy from a while back.

 

[Beck]

This Beck guy and his merry band of idiots have the Analog Only section of this BBS all sewn up. No use arguing with him as he has enough on his hands with the newbies tearing them up over these silly analog points. They keep trying to argue that a porta- studio is comparable with a 2" 24 track Studer!

He hates digital and will infect this place. Leave him in the Analog Only section and go there to find out exactly how he screws you by basically having the whole group of morons trash you.

And, no I am not kidding at all.

But you're lying, as usual. Nothing you said in your post has any basis in truth… it’s a complete fabrication.

You are banned from the analog forum because you are a troll that has a pattern of harassing/stalking other members. You’ve been reinvented several times with new user IDs because Dragon keeps banning you. This has been going on for years. You are obsessed and need intervention.

You’re going to be banned again soon… this time for good if you keep it up. What new user ID will you choose this time? We always figure it out, so why not just tell us.

 

[Beck]

Interesting quote. But all they're saying is they prefer the sound of the recording after it's been coloured by tape. The digital recording is a more accurate representation of what came through the mics & pres. You gotta colour in in yourself

Digital and analog both color the original source, but in different ways.

You have hit upon a major point... the very magic of analog, and why it should be in your bag of audio tricks. Analog adds musical harmonic content that already exists in natural sound. The effect is pleasing to ear. We say the recorded sound is "Better than live." not necessarily accurate. On the other hand, analog can be very clean and accurate depending on how you're using it.

 

[Beck]

If it's the guy I'm thinking you are refering to, he also appears to have a rather unhealthy obsession with 'sticky' tape. But each to their own, I suppose!

Sticky-shed is the most common stumbling block to new users of analog. Being aware of it from the start can mean the difference between success and failure for analog neophytes... so I take time out of my schedule and provide a service in the analog forum so that members may have a happy experience as they're getting started. That's all.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Its not until you record them and play them back do you hear how awful they can sound.

I'm not going to pretend that what I am about to say is the entire answer, but it's one that often is relevant to the issue of recording guitar distortion.

First off is the realization that ALMOST NOTHING you record ever sounds like the real thing when you play it back. When was the last time you recorded a baby grand or an acoustic guitar that actually sounded exactly like the original? Think about it. Except for high-budget situations, people tend to expect some degree of comprimise when recording almost anything. Except the headbangers and their e-git "sound", which is more important than the actual music they are trying to create with that sound, and has to be perfect, right?

Usually one or both of two things is happening when they just can't get a good recorded tone from their recording: they have the distortion turned too high, or they have the volume turned too high with the mic too close. As to the first, a little distortion often seems to go a longer way on recorded playback than it does live. As to the second, turn it down. If you have to have it loud to get that feedback (both mechanical and emotional) then put it in a good-sounding room and move the mic back.

@beck. I can't speak for everyone, but I suspect I am not the only one who's feeling is that I don't have an exception to your evangelizing of analog except when you start using plainly and clearly false factual-style information to defend your point. You have a definitive affinity for analog over digital, and that's fine. But your weakness, with all respect, is that you tend to believe almost any piece of information that floats down the sewer pipes of the Internet that is pro analog and/or anti-digital. Your actual technical understanding of the digital side is a combination of sorely lacking and obsolete, and your refusal to learn the enemy before you attack it leaves you wide open for counter-attack by those who have done so.

That a 2" Studer sounds much better than a Presonus Firepod, there is little debate. That an Otari 5050 sounds better than an Apogee 800 on house black there can be much legitimate debate.

G.

 

[MCI2424]

Southside Glen Said:
"...@beck. I can't speak for everyone, but I suspect I am not the only one who's feeling is that I don't have an exception to your evangelizing of analog except when you start using plainly and clearly false factual-style information to defend your point. You have a definitive affinity for analog over digital, and that's fine. But your weakness, with all respect, is that you tend to believe almost any piece of information that floats down the sewer pipes of the Internet that is pro analog and/or anti-digital. Your actual technical understanding of the digital side is a combination of sorely lacking and obsolete, and your refusal to learn the enemy before you attack it leaves you wide open for counter-attack by those who have done so.
..."


Actually, you said the truth with much more flair than me. I have frankly had it with guys like this.

 

[cusebassman]

Then someone like me drops by and a few wonder if they are missing something that could bring their music to a new level. But just when you’re getting interested in what might lie beyond what you think you know, one of your buddies chimes in carrying his six-pack,

I suppose you have let this tyrade go on and on because you are trying to defend analog against pro digital studios... but the vast majority of people here aren't trying to design a professional studio with hundreds of thousands of dollars of disposable income. Most of us have a couple hundred, maybe a grand or two to throw around, and can't afford all that analog brings with it. Go to a more professional-oriented forum to flame digital.

The question in this thread was not "If I spent 450,000 dollars, did I expect professional quality?" It is directed toward home studio hobbyists. Not that I don't value the opinions of the analog guys, or that I don't wish I had the time, space and money to construct a nice analog environment - it just isn't the right place to have this argument.

That a 2" Studer sounds much better than a Presonus Firepod, there is little debate. That an Otari 5050 sounds better than an Apogee 800 on house black there can be much legitimate debate.

G.

Ah man, now I've gotta go buy a Studer 24 That Firepod is holding me back!! ...and so is my untreated room. Maybe I'll start there first

 

[mshilarious]

Go to a more professional-oriented forum to flame digital.

I would pay good money to see Beck start a thread like this in Bruno Putzeys' forum. Oh man, with John Roberts, Nika Aldrich and whole rest of gang of real EEs, physicists, and high-end gear designers . . . maybe even Dan Lavry for ol' times sake. I'd want front row seats and a big bag of peanuts!

 

[MCI2424]

So was Truman … but something about the world he had always taken for granted started to bug him… things didn’t add up.

Whenever, someone or something made him question his reality, his best buddy, Marlon, would show up right on time with a six pack of beer to help bring him back down.

These forums are much the same way. There’s a whole world of recording outside this cyber reality and it’s always been there. The PC-centric world of these forums can be very small and dogmatic. In here digital can do anything.

Then someone like me drops by and a few wonder if they are missing something that could bring their music to a new level. But just when you’re getting interested in what might lie beyond what you think you know, one of your buddies chimes in carrying his six-pack,

“But what about Nyquist?” he says, or “Have you heard the such & such VST? You must not have, because if you did you wouldn’t question the fact that digital can emulate everything we need.

Truman, buddy… no need to leave Seahaven. We got it all right here… Would I lie to you, and would those nice vendors, manufacturer reps, and others selling products and services on these forums lie to us? Course not. Psst! Have another brewski.”

WOW. Talk about really insulting a whole bunch of really knowledgable people here. This ain't good.....................

 

[Beck]

@beck. I can't speak for everyone, but I suspect I am not the only one who's feeling is that I don't have an exception to your evangelizing of analog except when you start using plainly and clearly false factual-style information to defend your point. You have a definitive affinity for analog over digital, and that's fine. But your weakness, with all respect, is that you tend to believe almost any piece of information that floats down the sewer pipes of the Internet that is pro analog and/or anti-digital. Your actual technical understanding of the digital side is a combination of sorely lacking and obsolete, and your refusal to learn the enemy before you attack it leaves you wide open for counter-attack by those who have done so.
G.

Evangelizing, eh?

I've been on the other side of that, when I lectured on destructive cults and how to avoid them to incoming college students in the late 80’s. The psychology of cults and other extremist groups… just another interest of mine.

Of all the issues in recording, nothing is as religious in nature as the so-called “Digital Revolution” and the misconceptions that perpetuate it. The religious fervor that surrounded it (and still surrounds it) was overwhelming as a social movement. And of course anyone that might have suggested a plug-in, a pre, or some digital solution in response to the OP is not evangelizing because they are adhering to acceptable cult dogma.


It’s quite the opposite of what you say, Glen. Your comment that I “Believe almost any piece of information that floats down the sewer pipes of the Internet that is pro analog and/or anti-digital” is simply untrue. In fact your idea applies to the gullibility of many members on these forums in accepting any and all digital mythology.

I’m a genealogist, an ardent skeptic with a degree in social science. My sources are well researched. My survey methods are sound… my standards high, and my background in recording goes back nearly 30 years and to the present in all areas relating to sound recording, not simply analog/digital issues.

A solid foundation is what so many people that have grown up on these forums are lacking. That’s why I regularly point people away from the forums until they know enough to navigate them with success. I don’t ask people to take my word for it. I know the data and information is out there for them to make up their own minds. They may come around after some time and say, “Eh, Beck was right about this or that” and that’s fine, but not the point of it all. It's more likely they will forget who said what during the course of a thread.

The point is, IMO the music scene sucks and I have some hope that a remnant of informed people will revive it some day.

What’s’ happening is that you and a couple others are trying to converse using freshmen level understanding… that is very clear. At that level it is all very blue-sky marketing brochure stuff. And for that reason perhaps I shouldn’t try to engage you at the graduate level. You seem to be completely unaware of issues that are regularly discussed in professional circles.

My grasp of digital recording goes to the very core and is as up to date and forward-looking as Tomorrow's concepts. You don’t recognize my terminology, nor can you engage in a technical discussion, but that’s because you haven’t arrived, not because I don’t understand. It is the digital lemmings that are out of the loop.

I prefer analog, but that’s because I also use digital…. a fact you appear to be deliberately ignoring. I guess it doesn’t fit with your neat little paradigm in which analog guys are just ghosts from the past that don’t get it. I know very few analog fans that haven’t made a true choice when looking at analog and digital solutions. In contrast, most digital users, especially at this level, have made no choice at all because they don’t know anything about analog.

You’re repeating what I’ve heard over and over in brochures, mags and web forums for years. According to these you are indeed in the majority.

Of course there will be misunderstandings and disagreement, but you’re obviously getting frustrated and I might add, you went personal, ugly and began shedding more heat than light on the subject very early in the thread. I've heard tell of this behavior of yours from other members, but never experienced it until this thread.

I think you can do better than that, unless of course you are one of those that have something to lose in an open examination and frank discussion of how digital promises have failed to deliver and continue to fail. This thread alone... even just the title would be a threat to you whether I had chimed in or not.

Insults and other social pressure won’t work on me… they never have. Therefore, you have to keep the discussion on topic. Tell us something you know other than that you think I’m wrong and outdated. Judging from your replies you should be asking questions rather than making so many declarations and accusations. You don’t seem at all interested in elaboration, feedback or clarification, which are crucial to productive debate.

Those that try to twist my arm through insults and other social control tell me more about how they developed their own points of view…likely through social pressure, as opposed to technical understanding.

This thread started with a question form the OP. Many people have chimed in with ideas and solutions. My answer may not be what you want to hear, but it is my contribution nonetheless, and as always some will benefit from learning something they didn’t know before... but only if they consider music/recording important enough to do follow-up research.

These things should be treated as investigations… Tips and leads are gathered from various people and then the onus is on the reader to look into the options. If you have any sense, that means sources other than web forums. With forums you're always going to have a few strong, opinionated personalities with the rest running around trying to decide whom to follow. That is no way to learn the ins and outs of recording.

And to cusebassman... no, I use carefully selected semi-pro analog gear, and have always supported the notion that one can get professional results with modest equipment, if they know what they're doing... and I've said as mush even on this thread. You and many others at this point in a thread just can't keep up with the positions already stated and stated again by various members.

TIP: When reading a thread, don't let one member define the perspective of another member. Go back and read what each has actually said and believes.

Speaking of which, I'll challenge anyone to a game of Simon. But let me warn you, the batteries will fail before I do. Another curse that makes these discussions a bit annoying to me.

 

[MCI2424]

It’s quite the opposite, Glen. Your comment that I “Believe almost any piece of information that floats down the sewer pipes of the Internet that is pro analog and/or anti-digital” is simply untrue. In fact your idea applies to the gullibility of many members on these forums in accepting any and all digital mythology.

I’m a genealogist, an ardent skeptic with a degree in social science. My sources are well researched. My survey methods are sound… my standards high, and my background in recording goes back nearly 30 years and to the present in all areas relating to sound recording, not simply analog/digital issues.

A solid foundation is what so many people that have grown up on these forums are lacking. That’s why I regularly point people away from the forums until they know enough to navigate them with success. I don’t ask people to take my word for it. I know the data and information is out there for them to make up their own minds. They may come around after some time and say, “Eh, Beck was right about this or that” and that’s fine, but not the point of it all. It's more likely they will forget who said what during the course of a thread.

The point is, IMO the music scene sucks and I have some hope that a remnant of informed people will revive it some day.

What’s’ happening is that you and a couple others are trying to converse using freshmen level understanding… that is very clear. At that level it is all very blue-sky marketing brochure stuff. And for that reason perhaps I shouldn’t try to engage you at the graduate level. You seem to be completely unaware of issues that are regularly discussed in professional circles.

My grasp of digital recording goes to the very core and is as up to date and forward-looking as Tomorrow's concepts. You don’t recognize my terminology, nor can you engage in a technical discussion, but that’s because you haven’t arrived, not because I don’t understand. It is the digital lemmings that are out of the loop.

I prefer analog, but that’s because I also use digital…. a fact you appear to be deliberately ignoring. I guess it doesn’t fit with your neat little paradigm in which analog guys are just ghosts from the past that don’t get it. I know very few analog fans that haven’t made a true choice when looking at analog and digital solutions. In contrast, most digital users, especially at this level, have made no choice at all because they don’t know anything about analog.

You’re repeating what I’ve heard over and over in brochures, mags and web forums for years. According to these you are indeed in the majority.

Of course there will be misunderstandings and disagreement, but you’re obviously getting frustrated and I might add, you went personal, ugly and began shedding more heat than light on the subject very early in the thread. I've heard tell of this behavior of yours from other members, but never experienced it until this thread.

I think you can do better than that, unless of course you are one of those that have something to lose in an open examination and frank discussion of how digital promises have failed to deliver and continue to fail. This thread alone... even just the title would be a threat to you whether I had chimed in or not.

Insults and other social pressure won’t work on me… they never have. Therefore, you have to keep the discussion on topic. Tell us something you know other than that you think I’m wrong and outdated. Judging from your replies you should be asking questions rather than making so many declarations and accusations. You don’t seem at all interested in elaboration, feedback or clarification, which are crucial to productive debate.

Those that try to twist my arm through insults and other social control tell me more about how they developed their own points of view…likely through social pressure, as opposed to technical understanding.

This thread started with a question form the OP. Many people have chimed in with ideas and solutions. My answer may not be what you want to hear, but it is my contribution nonetheless, and as always some will benefit from learning something they didn’t know before... but only if they consider music/recording important enough to do follow-up research.

These things should be treated as investigations… Tips and leads are gathered from various people and then the onus is on the reader to look into the options. If you have any sense, that means sources other than web forums. With forums you're always going to have a few strong, opinionated personalities with the rest running around trying to decide whom to follow. That is no way to learn the ins and outs of recording.

This is twice as insulting! Do you realize that you are on a forum with many respected professionals in audio?

I am running away right now....................