Help Recording DI Distorted Guitar Tones

  • Thread starter Thread starter ChubbyCat
  • Start date Start date
Old Music Guy said:
So, thinking back on some other posts, (specifically the low gain on the interface) it seems as though "gain staging" is the answer. Start low, and add gain as you go.
I'm guilty of "overdriving", and I think that has to do with the nomenclature of levels. I am used to analog meters: VU meters. I know what 0VU is. But I get lost with dBm, dBu, db?, +4dB or -10dB whatever unit.
Life used to be so simple.
Click to expand...
It always comes down to gain staging, eh?

I do think with respect to DIs, there's no real upside in recording any hotter than unity... but, beyond that, I think it's just a matter of being sure you're feeding any VST the sort of signal it's expecting. If the OP ever resurfaces, I would be curious if his issue is just using too hot of a DI.
 
ChubbyCat said:
Every guitar tone I record is muddy and horrible. I've been trying to record rock/metal music with distorted tones using my guitar for a long time now. I have an Ibanez AZ47P1QM that I plug into a Scarlett Solo's 2nd input with the "inst" button enabled, running Logic with neural DSP digital amp plugins. Despite how much all of this has cost, I still cannot manage to get a half-decent distorted tone no matter what I try with amp adjustments, EQ, etc. Would getting a DI box fix my problem? Playing lead melodies/solos usually sounds fine, as well as clean tones. However, any kind of chord, if even mildly distorted, always ends up sounding like fuzzy, unintelligible noise. I've been led to believe that because the Scarlet Solo possesses the "inst" button, a DI box shouldn't be necessary; however, clearly something is wrong. Should I just get a better audio interface? A better audio interface plus a DI box, maybe? Also, I've noticed that there are both $20 and $200 DI boxes on Amazon; would a $20 one even be worth it? Any help regarding anything I've said would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
BTW, have you had any luck with anything here?
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
It always comes down to gain staging, eh?

I do think with respect to DIs, there's no real upside in recording any hotter than unity... but, beyond that, I think it's just a matter of being sure you're feeding any VST the sort of signal it's expecting. If the OP ever resurfaces, I would be curious if his issue is just using too hot of a DI.
Click to expand...
There's a hugely long thread about what level different plugins expect from guitar signals, with very specific numbers at the GearForums website. It is very detailed. I think the info was also posted to other places and the site has to be taken with a grain of salt as there is a lot of pro shill/anti science moderation there. I think Jason Sadites may have a similar video. I know that after these were posted a lot of the metoo pretend guru influencers posted similar videos so it should be out there

This also has some info on the gain setting for various interfaces. https://thegearforum.com/threads/calibrating-input-level-for-plugins.816/page-3

Again, take it with a grain of salt as the moderation there is ABSOLUTE garbage and those who tell the truth will often be banned, but this thread has some great info
 
"Also, I've noticed that there are both $20 and $200 DI boxes on Amazon; would a $20 one even be worth it? Any help regarding anything I've said would be greatly appreciated."
Get the cheaper one Drew,
Firstly for the reason that you have little to lose! But mainly because the more expensive a DI gets the more "hi fi" it tends to be and what I think you need is something to take some of the HF 'edge' off.

And remember, you want a PASSIVE DI. Those in interfaces are always active (amplifiers) and usually wide band and hi fi.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Firstly for the reason that you have little to lose! But mainly because the more expensive a DI gets the more "hi fi" it tends to be and what I think you need is something to take some of the HF 'edge' off.
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t op for cheap DIs.
ecc83 said:
And remember, you want a PASSIVE DI. Those in interfaces are always active (amplifiers) and usually wide band and hi fi.
Click to expand...
That is not necessarily true - active DI’s have a tone and a sound he might like.
 
Papanate said:
I wouldn’t op for cheap DIs.

That is not necessarily true - active DI’s have a tone and a sound he might like.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily bloody wrong either! The main deign point of an active DI is to present a high, 1M Ohm input resistance and I am trying to explain that a lower, C ~150k might tame the fizz a bit.
If he spent $20 on a passive DI and absolutely hated it (I am betting he would not) he could probably get $15 for it as "almost new" on Ebay. Chalk the five bucks up to experience!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
"Also, I've noticed that there are both $20 and $200 DI boxes on Amazon; would a $20 one even be worth it? Any help regarding anything I've said would be greatly appreciated."
Get the cheaper one Drew,
Firstly for the reason that you have little to lose! But mainly because the more expensive a DI gets the more "hi fi" it tends to be and what I think you need is something to take some of the HF 'edge' off.

And remember, you want a PASSIVE DI. Those in interfaces are always active (amplifiers) and usually wide band and hi fi.

Dave.
Click to expand...
I'm not the OP. :lol:

And again, unless I'm very badly mistaken, the issue isn't the OP is recording a DI and wondering why it soounds like garbage when he plays it back, he's recording a DI and then feeding it into an amp sim plugin and wondering why it sounds like garbage, and if that's the case the most likely theory I have is the DI is being recorded hotter than the VST expects to see signal. And if that's the case, that's like taking a guitar and plugging it into a +20db boost and then into a guitar amp, and wondering why everything sounds like a hot flubby fizzy mess.
 
pipelineaudio said:
There's a hugely long thread about what level different plugins expect from guitar signals, with very specific numbers at the GearForums website. It is very detailed. I think the info was also posted to other places and the site has to be taken with a grain of salt as there is a lot of pro shill/anti science moderation there. I think Jason Sadites may have a similar video. I know that after these were posted a lot of the metoo pretend guru influencers posted similar videos so it should be out there

This also has some info on the gain setting for various interfaces. https://thegearforum.com/threads/calibrating-input-level-for-plugins.816/page-3

Again, take it with a grain of salt as the moderation there is ABSOLUTE garbage and those who tell the truth will often be banned, but this thread has some great info
Click to expand...
I'm not brave enough to wade though TGF. :lol:

For my purposes, personally, while demoign I've just been using the old LePou Lecto with various IRs because it actually does a fairly good job of getting me into the ballpark of my preferred lead sounds, and that one responds very normally with a unity-levelDI signal. And when tracking in earnest, in the past I've always gone straight into the amp and not bothered with DIs, and these days now that I have a daughter and a lot of my recording is after her bedtime, I'm using a Radial reamp box and recording at unity gives you a unity-level send if you set the Reamp Level at 100%, so that's ALSO a very predictable, controllable option for me. So I just do everything at unity, and based on the testing I've done I don't seem to be giving anything up by not tracking DIs hotter than that.
 
Nothing wrong with (most) cheap DI boxes. Usually when people say stuff against them have never actually properly tested them, just like mic preamps and every other magic or religious claims people make based on marketing

pipelineaudio.net

Direct Boxes

DI inputs 0VU level was set to -18, so you can compare the relative outputs of the different DI’s from the amount above or below -18. (DI’s from interfaces and channel strips not includ…
pipelineaudio.net pipelineaudio.net
 
ecc83 said:
Not necessarily bloody wrong either! The main deign point of an active DI is to present a high, 1M Ohm input resistance and I am trying to explain that a lower, C ~150k might tame the fizz a bit.
If he spent $20 on a passive DI and absolutely hated it (I am betting he would not) he could probably get $15 for it as "almost new" on Ebay. Chalk the five bucks up to experience!

Dave.
Click to expand...
On my test of noise, distortion, frequency response and bandwidth, the 20 dollar (at the time) RAPCO DB-100 (which is now the Horizon DB-1 I think) performed as well as the Radial JDI. What wasn't in the test but probably important to many was that the Radial JDI rejected computer noise in super close proximity (like sitting on top of the computer tower) better than some of the others, though the RAPCO held its own there agains the RADIAL ProDI and Pro2
 
pipelineaudio said:
On my test of noise, distortion, frequency response and bandwidth, the 20 dollar (at the time) RAPCO DB-100 (which is now the Horizon DB-1 I think) performed as well as the Radial JDI. What wasn't in the test but probably important to many was that the Radial JDI rejected computer noise in super close proximity (like sitting on top of the computer tower) better than some of the others, though the RAPCO held its own there agains the RADIAL ProDI and Pro2
Click to expand...
That is interesting. Did you use a simulated guitar pickup source for the tests? Problematic I know because what values of L and R do you choose! What was the difference, if any in the 1kHz insertion loss?

I am not surprised the Radial did better on ambient electrical noise reduction. The Jensen transformer has double shielding and the box is made of 14g steel. You tend not to get that stuff for 20 bucks!

Dave.
 
Last edited:
I didn’t use a guitar but used a reamp signal to feed it so I could get the right level and impedance. Some boxes were quieter than others level wise given the same input. The radial pro di was pretty low but the pro2 and radial av had the same level output as the radial jdi and the db100.

Jensen claimed mu metal for the jtdbe transformer. It’s funny that they made that transformer long before computers were in real audio use in studios but damn it works great for rejection!
 
I just don’t understand this topic. What on earth does “it sounds like garbage” actually mean. I have real guitars, real gizmos on the floor, and in rack mounts and now lots of processors in the computer. Never has anything sounded like garbage. Lots of times i cannot get the sound i want. So i swap guitars, stomp boxes processors and vsts until i get it! DI boxes and different interfaces are way down the list. If i cannot find the expensive DI boxes i will happily use a twenty quid one. This ‘garbage’ thing and all these ‘solutions’ make no sense at all. Forget the processing for a moment. I have never found a DI I can’t use or found an interface input EQ could not salvage. With hundreds of programs available in hardware and software, I have never been stuck. This is chasing rainbows stuff. Totally pointless. We all have gizmos with hundreds of sounds and we still can’t find th3 right one. That is normal everyday stuff. Swap the guitar, try something else. Thats normal. Don’t blame gear others find no issues with. If you cannot find the tone you want, keep looking and tweaking.

Edit
Reamping is NEVER going to work like a guitar would. Everything is different. You can’t expect facsimiles of guitars to work like guitars. Plus when you play with effects, you play differently. DIing a guitar and adding effects later has always been a rubbish way of doing it. Mu metal has always been the electronics version of copper strip in a guitar. Mumetal for transformers and reel to reel head shields is just history?
 
rob aylestone said:
I just don’t understand this topic. What on earth does “it sounds like garbage” actually mean. I
Click to expand...
The OP did eventually post a clip, and my best guess was he was feeding the VST a signal a lot hotter than it was expecting... but he hasn't been back, so I don't know if adjusting input levels helped him any. I'm curious, but what can you do.
 
Getting the guitar into a preamp and/or DI is so much simpler than taking a line out and making that behave like a guitar.
 
rob aylestone said:
Getting the guitar into a preamp and/or DI is so much simpler than taking a line out and making that behave like a guitar.
Click to expand...
I completely agree with your earlier point Rob about people speaking of "garbage sound". Audio forums are full of such hyperbolic statements and this is nowhere more true than with the guitar brigade!

Endless "night and day" claims about "NOS" or "Cryo" valves. Often based on a 30 second clip of a distorted riff. Never when the valves are swapped do we get a voltage table to see if the DC conditions have change. Never do we get any idea if the circuit has changed in gain.

There is also a lot of confusion about re amp circuits. A couple of years ago it took me several posts to convince an obviously intelligent studio guy that a re amp box does NOT have, nor does it NEED a one meg output resistance!
I think confusion arises because it is thought that there is some sort of interaction between the guitar and the input of the amplifier? There is no inter-ACTION simply a slight passive modification of the response of the pickup due to input resistance and to some degree the small capacitance. The latter rarely exceeds 200pF for a Triode input (a solid state input, i.e. may or may not have a similar capacitance but it is desirable as an RF stopper). The guitar cable likely adds many more puffs and is if course a random variable!

So, once you have your "take" into whatever device, the sound is "baked in" and to reamp it you just need some means to get the level suitable for a guitar amp and almost always a transformer isolater to defeat ground loops.

Dave.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top