Hello China

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crawdad

crawdad

Dammit, Jim, Shut Up!
With the recent proliferation of Chinese made microphones, which are high quality and inexpensive, it really makes me wonder how long it will be before they start turning out copies of Neve mic pre's for $99. From what I have read, 747 has been making "exact" copies of Neumann's and Sennheisers, etc..for a while. They just don't get imported to this country because of trademark or patent infringement issues. Yet, it seems that they have gotten around those issues by placing VERY similar capsules in redesigned bodies, which they sell here. I know thats not always the case, as Studio Projects designed their own mics and just had them built in China. (Just don't want to get Alan upset by my generalities)

Since the R&D has already been done and proven on those old Neve modules, I just wonder how long it will be before they start churning out "very close" copies of pre's, compressors and equalizers for low prices. Heck, there is already a ton of stuff being built over there. It must just be a matter of time before the companion pre's to these nice mics begin to show up.

What do you all think?
 
Copies of Neve mic pre's for $99? For me and most anyone with a home studio that's good. Sad but good. Gotta go with what works and is affordable.
 
It's a fairly obvious thing. Funny, though, how no one has done it.

Studio Projects seemed like a likely place for that but they have one of those not real "tube" colorization preamps coming out and an eight channel Burr Brownesque pre slated for sometime this summer. There are lots of tube colorization pres on the market. I got no idea why we need yet another. Now, eight channels of a Burr Brown type of pre will be a good thing.

Why not two channels of Neve 1272 for under $400? What about one channel of Neve 1073 for under $400? You'd be selling those forever. Maybe someone else with contacts in China will do it.
 
Even if you could get the components required to do a Neve pre for $99 (just the transformers alone would blow that idea), I think there is more to it than just slapping shit together. If you could just grab a Neve schematic (which are available on the net BTW) and fire up an assembly line pumping out super high quality preamps at super low prices, then we wouldn't have all these cheap ass preamps.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Slackmaster2K said:
Even if you could get the components required to do a Neve pre for $99 (just the transformers alone would blow that idea), I think there is more to it than just slapping shit together. If you could just grab a Neve schematic (which are available on the net BTW) and fire up an assembly line pumping out super high quality preamps at super low prices, then we wouldn't have all these cheap ass preamps.

Slackmaster 2000
Click to expand...

you can get two channel 1272 made in england mic pres for $1,200. given the differing economies, i suspect the chinese could make it and you could sell it here for less than $500. i'd bet street price would be a lot lower than you'd think.

$99 is a pipe dream however. $300? maybe not. $400? probably could be done.

as far as all the cheap ass preamps... we got a lot of cheap ass large condensor mics. there are a few exceptions here and there of really good products such as the studio projects c1 or the rode nt1 but most of 'em are more in the cheap ass category.
 
and i still wouldn't be able to afford em! damn this expensive hobby... wait! sorry! i didn't mean that! i take it back!
 
The biggest thing you are overlooking is the same problem with ANY mass produced product- QUALITY CONTROL.

Any company can hire a bunch of 12yr old asian kids and start slapping together circuit boards but you still have to have good engineers to make sure the actual product meets the spec. Sloppy assembly can totaly screw everything up.

If the buyer is has enough audio/electrical engineer expertise they can do their own QC before buying them and be able to clean up any sloppy mfg.

I would love to see cheap Neve copies but you still get what you pay for. Although sometimes you get lucky and get a little more.
 
Bejing and Shangai do not make exact copeis of Neumanns. They may *look* like them, but they surely do not sound like them.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the SP line uses the same cap as the other chinese mics.

The thing that made the neve's sound like neve's were the transformers and superb design. The transformers are not made anymore and it is very expensive to make quality transformers these days. You could easily copy a design from a schematic, but if you dont know how those designs were/are implemented, your not going to get the same sound. And TexRoadkill is spot on with the quality control issue. QC in china is really really bad.

You cannot skimp on parts in a *quality* unit. Unfortunately, with more and more people wanting cheaper and cheaper gear, manufacturers have to skimp to make a buck. Then they go to china, they're really good at it.
 
Well, my $99 figure was just an arbitrary number for demonstration purposes, but I enjoyed reading the replies. I'm no electronics engineer for sure, so it was interesting to hear that with a higher price figure and some good QC, it could be a reality to see such pres. Maybe not Neves, but something high end. No that long ago there was no such thing as a cheap LD condenser, let alone a 99 or 59 dollar one. When I bought my AT 4033 back in 94, I think it was around $700, and that was a great deal at the time. So all I am saying is that things could change and the change will probably come from Chinese manufacturing. If I can buy a 27" color TV for $200, why couldn't they make a great mic pre for $300-$400?

I sometimes get the sense that some folks who have shelled out big bucks for very expensive equipment don't like hearing about inexpensive microphones/ mixers and pre-amps that rival their high end purchases. However, the trend will always be to sell to a price point. The trend for the last ten years is that the quality has been going up and the price has been coming down. I agree, there are some things that you can't cut corners on in pursuit of quality, but Chinese labor becomes the wild card in the equation.

Maybe it won't ever happen, but lets wait a year or two and see.
 
Malcolm Toft of Trident used to fill the transformer with epoxy to protect his transformer design.
 
Slackmaster2K said:
Even if you could get the components required to do a Neve pre for $99 (just the transformers alone would blow that idea), I think there is more to it than just slapping shit together. If you could just grab a Neve schematic (which are available on the net BTW) and fire up an assembly line pumping out super high quality preamps at super low prices, then we wouldn't have all these cheap ass preamps.

Slackmaster 2000
Click to expand...

I agree with that ...you wouldn't be able to get one repaired for less than $300.

As for copies of the top of the line mics. I searched for a long time and still ended up buying the Neumanns. I don't care how close people get...close only counts in horseshoes and nuclear weapons. The good thing is that sometimes, close is good enough because even the top of the line mics aren't good for everything.
 
epithath for a cheepskate

a poem by philboyd studge:

He died from physical maladies not
Nor cocaine, or booze, or too much pot

He died from distant melodies yay
Fuzzy mixes, and songs gone astray

His suicide confirmed the greatest fear
He died from using crappy gear
 
bad labor? you are getting the best the chinese labor market has to offer on audio products. these take skilled labor.

crap? my political beliefs would want that to be so. a couple years ago, i found most chinese stuff to be questionable in quality. today, it seems to be as good as any japanese electronic items.

i think the real point of this thread has been why doesn't someone have a chinese plant make a traditional style of pre. to date, they've been making pres aimed at the low end market where stupid things like colorization tubes are the thing. why not make a traditional pre with a traditional style solid state or tube circuit? i don't care if it sounds like a neve. it'd sound better than a colorization tube piece of crap. and, whoever did it would get rich.
 
I'm not aware of any chinese products that aren't aimed at the low end market.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Slackmaster2K said:
I'm not aware of any chinese products that aren't aimed at the low end market.

Slackmaster 2000
Click to expand...

go to the stores, not just the music stores, and check the origin of products. you'd be surprised.
 
If Rolls Royce were to set up operations in China they could sell a sedan for around $100,000. Would it still be a Rolls Royce?
 
Seems like this discussion has turned into some thing else in a way, but that is OK. Fabled mic pre's or not, there seem to be two camps. The first believes that only expensive gear can produce quality recordings. The second thinks that this "cheap crap" isn't as cheap sometimes as others think. Me? I'm still wading through a lot of information and doing a lot of experimentation and the jury is still out. Meanwhile, I respect everybody's opinions and listen to all because i have lots to learn.

I do believe that expensive gear in the hands of the unskilled is not much of an advantage. Conversely, the trained engineer could probably achieve pro results with Mackies and SM57's. The skills can't be brushed off lightly. I have utmost respect for the engineer who's paid his dues. Maybe only he/she can really appreciate the differences between a Neumann and something close.

Anyway, I'm just trying to step with the spirit of this board, which is home recording. I think most of us want to strive for the best quality they can get within a budget. $500,000 consoles and tuned rooms are pipe dreams. We want to know what equipment is pro grade and also how to use it for maximum effect. For most of us, things like $2000 pre amps and $1700 mics are out of reach, so we look for the most bang for the buck. Every case is, of course, different.

The home recording phenomenon is a recent one, and it is changing the way things are done. Its cheaper gear that has brought this on. The high end studio owner may laugh at home studios, but I also think underneath the laughter, there is a bit of worry because people will:

1. Find ways to make great recordings on a budget.
2. Make crappy recordings and be satisfied (hey, its almost free)
3. At least make a dent in the bottom line.

Here's what I think. I'm never gonna pretend to be able to compete with the services that a full pro studio offers. Yet, armed with a great mic, a good pre amp or channel strip, a great performance to record, and being patient and using my ears, I can make quality recordings that at least come very close. For many home recording folks, that is a great thing. I'd say I'm talking about 90% of the studios and studio owners out there today.

I think there's room for all and the spirit of this board is behind the small guy and the big guy. In the end, its making quality recordings and music that counts. Whether its a Chinese mic pre, the RNMP, the Studio Projects pre, a Neve or a Joe Meek, people will be looking to upgrade to a better sounding recording. I understand theres a lot of room for debate on this subject. I guess what I am trying to say is that I respect all of your opinions and appreciate your input. I'm just thinking out loud--not making any pronouncements from any mountain. Thanks for your time.
 
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