Guitar 'truths" that you believe are myths

[TalismanRich]

It's funny, Years ago, I heard the exact same thing about Jimi Hendrix. He could pick up any guitar and start playing it. It might be a lefty thing... if you look in any guitar store, 95+% of them are going to be right handed. I have a bass playing friend who is lefty, but he plays right handed.

Eric Gales is a righty, who plays a right handed guitar upside down because he was taught by his left handed brother.

 

[rip chord]

These are exactly the types of statements that are all over the internet. And they are totally unsubstantiated. First, there is no absolute "tone", so there's no way to even make such a statement. You might like a particular guitar, but that's not an "absolute" ultimate sound. Guitar A may sound different from guitar B, but that's all you can say. Unless you disassemble a guitar, weight relieve it, and put it together perfectly, then how can you tell what effect it had?

Someone might say that the 59 Les Paul is the ultimate sound, but then you have to ask which of the 643 made is the actual ultimate, they can't all be. Billy Gibbons is said to be a tone freak, yet some of his guitars are so hollowed out as to weigh less than 6 lbs but still look like a Les Paul.

So, I guess you could call that one of the ultimate myths.

Where are the myth busters when you need them?

I don't care where they are, I stand by my comment

 

[rob aylestone]

Hmmmm Weight relieved solid bodies are tone relieved? The snag is nobody has the same view of 'tone'. Pedal steels are probably the most rigid of any guitar type, and sustain the longest, because energy transfer into the body is the lowest. The trouble is they are very boring, tonally. They sustain well, though. Same with any string instrument - however, you only have to look at cellos and violins to hear tonal 'quality' - and the best tonal quality is absolutely NOT related to weight, or density - in fact, probably bodies that do flex, bend and resonate. They just do it nicely and improve the sound, rather than harm it.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

I don't believe that is true. Lefty yes, upside down no. Point taken, and you have a good one, but overstating does not serve it well.

Cheers to your son, sounds to be a well rounded accomplishment to himself and an asset to anyone who has to pleasure to his presence in a musical context. You are no doubt proud, and should be.

The term "frustrated guitarists" is actually not a literal term, but an affectionate one and one that describes a particular style of bass playing that went on to become very influential in the evolution of bass guitar playing and the position of the bass guitar, particularly in the various strands of rock music that developed from 1960 onwards. It also shines a light on the lowly position that the bass guitar had after its invention in 1952. It's quite an eye-opener to see what a stir of hatred and condescension it caused, particularly in jazz, when producers started picking up on it and realizing that it could now seriously compete with the volume of drums and electric guitar and made the double bass seem like a rubber band.

Chris Squire is an interesting bassist because he's one of the few bass players from the instrument's first 18 years {1952-70} that actually picked up the bass guitar without having started on another instrument. But, significantly, prior to picking up the bass when he was around 15, he'd spent many years as a trained chorister and before he took to the bass {and developed a love of the Beatles}, his sole musical interest was church music {interestingly, he grew up in Kingsbury where I live and he sang for years at St Andrew's Church ~ around the back, they have a nursery which both my kids went to} and he said that it was in those years that he learned most of what he knew about music.
Sting started off as a piano player before becoming obsessed with the guitar before he was even a teenager. He then became obsessed with the Beatles and up until 1967, learned every one of their songs on guitar. His mind was blown by Hendrix {he says seeing him live significantly altered his world-view}, and jazz took him to places yet unknown. When a friend first showed him a bass guitar, an instrument Sting described as "functional without being crude," he says he hadn't "really taken much interest in the instrument, regarding myself exclusively as a lead guitarist."



Ray Pohlman {one of the first session bassists as far back as the '50s} was a double bassist and guitarist, Carol Kaye started off on the guitar before turning to bass, Joe Osborne started on the guitar, Bill Pitman was primarily a guitarist, Max Bennett was a double bassist, Red Callender was a double bassist and tuba player, Chuck Rainey played viola, piano and trumpet before he got to the bass guitar, Lyle Ritz played double bass and ukulele, Chuck Berghofer played double bass as did Jimmy Bond; Bob West also played double bass and contributed to string sections - at one point or another, all of them "played" with the wrecking crew. It doesn't appear that any of them picked up the bass guitar as the first instrument they became proficient on. They were already instrumentalists, for the most part before it was even invented.

After 1970, I heartily agree with you. Prior to that most bassists came to the instrument through circumstances that they did not engineer, rather than through choice. For example, Wally Waller who played some neat bass with the Pretty Things in their psychedelic going into progressive phase {through "SF Sorrow" and "Parachute"} was a guitarist but he was a childhood friend of the group's singer Phil May and when the bass player John Stax left, May asked his mate to step in. Many of those initial early bassists would not have become bass guitarists had they been given the preference of the instrument they actually played. Even John Entwistle only turned to the bass because when he and Pete Townshend decided to play rock'n'roll instead of the trad jazz they'd been playing, Entwistle's trumpet and French horn couldn't be heard above the din. Entwistle actually said "I just wanted to be louder. I really got irritated when people could turn up their guitar amps and play louder than me. So I decided that I was going to play guitar....I did want to be a lead guitarist. The role of the lead guitarist was the most glamorous to me. I wanted to make solo spots in a group. And you don't go from being a frontman [which he had been as a trumpeter] to a back man." What got him to switch to bass was the size of his large hands which made it hard to twiddle about on the guitar and the fact that he liked Duane Eddy's low-note guitar playing and the fact that guitarists were ten-a-penny while bassists were almost as rare as hen's teeth in the late '50s.

After about 1970 I'd go along with that. But before then, bass guitarists largely made up how they played and much of that came from the instrumental mentality that they'd acquired before they turned to bass guitar. There really is scant evidence prior to the '70s of bassists actually deciding not to go with guitar or keyboards in favour of being the bassist. If there ever was an instrumental evolution that is easily and uniquely traceable, it is that of the bass guitarist.

As a producer it’s pretty easy to tell which bass players are the frustrated guitarists because they have a universal problem with the ability to lock down on the kik drum. A real bass player understands above all else that the bass and kik must function as basically one instrument.

 

[Mick Doobie]

It's funny, Years ago, I heard the exact same thing about Jimi Hendrix. He could pick up any guitar and start playing it. It might be a lefty thing... if you look in any guitar store, 95+% of them are going to be right handed. I have a bass playing friend who is lefty, but he plays right handed.

Eric Gales is a righty, who plays a right handed guitar upside down because he was taught by his left handed brother.

It is less of a novelty if you will now, the first time I saw a lefty playing upside down was live maybe 1980 a band called Maxx Warrior, cover band that after some change in players became the hairband "recording artist" Firehouse, the lefty no longer in the band(I don't think). I liked them much better as a cover band. Anyway. Craziest what the heck thing i'd ever seen as of that point. I couldn't help but watch the guy, a real mind f*ck. In a way it looked awkward, you're doing it wrong. Then again in a way it looked impressive. It worked. Or maybe it didn't, he was no longer in the band after they got a recording contract. He was good, but playing that way there is a different sound, a different dynamic.

I have no idea whether Paul McCartney can at will play upside down. I would think there were times when he did, out of necessity, or convenience, maybe early on. But at that point in his career necessity would no longer be a factor, I would think. I would think he would even have to re-"learn" to do Yesterday playing lefty upside down. I dont know.

However! As the stories go, Paul would at times re-record or add parts to Beatle songs out of the presence of other members. Or play solo guitar, such as on Taxman. Maybe I have, but I don't know that I recall ever seeing The Beatles in the studio pictures a lefty guitar, Paul playing. Did he play that Taxman solo on a righty guitar flipped over lefty and upside-down? Interesting. Maybe GrimTraveler can chime in, he seems to be somewhat of a music historian.

Just to keep ontoloc for the thread, is it a truth or a myth that Paul McCartney at times played righty flipped lefty and upside down?

 

[jimistone]

As a producer it’s pretty easy to tell which bass players are the frustrated guitarists because they have a universal problem with the ability to lock down on the kik drum. A real bass player understands above all else that the bass and kik must function as basically one instrument.

Leon Wilkinson, bass player for Lynyrs Skynyrd said when they first were starting out that Ronnie Van Zant picked him and Bob burns (the drummer) up early one morning and told them.
"We're going to "hell house" (their un-air conditioned metal rehersal building). He told them "just you too will be there without the rest of the band. The bass and drums don't sound like one instrument. So you have all day to figure it out. The rest of us will be there this evening and if you two aren't locked in and sounding like one instrument...we are getting another Drummer and bass player"

Lol

 

[Mick Doobie]

As a producer it’s pretty easy to tell which bass players are the frustrated guitarists because they have a universal problem with the ability to lock down on the kik drum. A real bass player understands above all else that the bass and kik must function as basically one instrument.

I can play bass, but I'm not a bass player. I don't really fret over it that much, but the reality is I play bass like a guitar player playing bass. It is a discipline, playing bass. You have to lay back on it a bit. I find, personally speaking, being primarily a guitar player, I tend to be ever so slightly on the front of the beat, when playing bass. I can do it on guitar when called for, lay back, but it just doesn't seem as natural or intuitive when I pick up a bass.

At times guitar players get much of the glory, but throughout a live performance a guitar player can make many mistakes which largely go unnoticed, not consequential. In my estimation, not so with the bass. Mistakes are memorable, sending the song at hand momentarily in a whole new direction, and not a good one. A lot of responsibility playing bass.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

I can play bass, but I'm not a bass player. I don't really fret over it that much, but the reality is I play bass like a guitar player playing bass. It is a discipline, playing bass. You have to lay back on it a bit. I find, personally speaking, being primarily a guitar player, I tend to be ever so slightly on the front of the beat, when playing bass. I can do it on guitar when called for, lay back, but it just doesn't seem as natural or intuitive when I pick up a bass.

At times guitar players get much of the glory, but throughout a live performance a guitar player can make many mistakes which largely go unnoticed, not consequential. In my estimation, not so with the bass. Mistakes are memorable, sending the song at hand momentarily in a whole new direction, and not a good one. A lot of responsibility playing bass.

Guitar players are a dime a dozen. A great band can have a mediocre guitar player as long as the bass and drums are great and the band can still be great with great songs and a professional singer. REM is a great example. Peter Buck is not a guitar virtuoso but he always plays exactly the right part. However, the drums and bass are like an atomic clock which is more essential.

 

[grimtraveller]

Just to keep ontoloc for the thread, is it a truth or a myth that Paul McCartney at times played righty flipped lefty and upside down?

I've got no idea. I've never heard that. But what I do recall is John Lennon, in the Playboy interview a few months before he died, saying that because Paul was left-handed and Paul taught him guitar chords {when they met he could only play banjo chords on the guitar}, he learned them left-handed, ie, upside down, then reversed them. He proudly stated in 1980 that he could still play the guitar upside down with the high strings on top.

As a producer it’s pretty easy to tell which bass players are the frustrated guitarists because they have a universal problem with the ability to lock down on the kik drum

Not when you're talking about Sting, Entwistle, Lemmy, Geezer Butler, Phil Lesh, McCartney and a plethora of other bass guitarists who began as guitarists.
Fact is, bass guitar playing from the inception of the bass guitar has largely developed in a myriad of different directions, often depending on the player, the song and the genre.
Which is why I cannot agree with this statement.

A real bass player understands above all else that the bass and kik must function as basically one instrument

In many instances within some genres, it is true. But that's too limiting an idea in its entirety and it pigeonholes both the bass guitarist and the drummer into a box from which they cannot escape and from which the song isn't given the necessary scope to expand if necessary.
Many times, the two components will function as one instrument. Equally, many times, that will not be the case and there will be a series of diverging rhythmic elements coming from both. Variation and diversity are as powerful as conformity in the right situation.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

Not when you're talking about Sting, Entwistle, Lemmy, Geezer Butler, Phil Lesh, McCartney and a plethora of other bass guitarists who began as guitarists.

These guys all played with the kick. I didn’t mean to imply that the bass can’t play melodically or play other bass notes in between the kick drum, but they have to be locked to the kick for it to work well. A bass player can play simple or play busy as long as they are in synch with the kick drum.

Many times, the two components will function as one instrument. Equally, many times, that will not be the case and there will be a series of diverging rhythmic elements coming from both. Variation and diversity are as powerful as conformity in the right situation

There are breakdowns and some sub-genres in jazz where this can be the case. But, In any rock, blues, soul, funk or country record the bass and kick must be pretty much locked in or nothing really works.

 

[jimistone]

I guess Cream is the exception. Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker were far too busy IMO.
All three of them were excellent in their own right but in a lot of their live stuff each was in their own world of noodling behind a syncopqted drum solo. To be fair that was a popular style of playing. They were known know as "the super group" and each one felt the need to be a star in their own right.
I never considered the bass and drums locked in. Even my favorite Cream performances "stepping out" and "sunshine of your love." was a wankfest, but in that context it worked pretty well without really being locked in on bass and kick

 

[ecc83]

IMHO "kick locked bass" is a bit of a "mere" ? As often not true as true.

I have listened to some stuff that just randomly came to mind and that I have loved.
"Come Together" Bass is largely doing its own thing (trying to learn it) though Mac and Ringo sync up for bits of the song.
"Little by Little" Fave Stones number...no 'king way! ALL up and down the fretboard but then the YT I found had such rubbish sound quality all the bass end was largely mush.
"Thunderstruck" AC/DC (cos I watched Battleship last night!) Nearest to a locked kick and bass but that 'driving' D&B sound is their trademark.

But, read any review about monitor speakers and it will say ONLY the very best AKA expensive, monitors have the capacity to resolve the difference between a bass drum and a bass G or acoustic bass. Most monitors are ported and that screws the timing something rotten (it is said).

My son is a guitarist by inclination (and near 40 years practice!) but he plays bass for a trio. The guitarists/lead singer writes the songs. Words and chords I think but Steve tells me he has to write out his bass parts. He is well capable of busking it but then the "guitarist" in him does a Jekel&Hyde and it gets too "busy"!

Dave.

 

[grimtraveller]

But, In any rock, blues, soul, funk or country record the bass and kick must be pretty much locked in or nothing really works.

I guess it depends who you are listening to.

 

[grimtraveller]

I guess Cream is the exception
I never considered the bass and drums locked in. Even my favorite Cream performances "stepping out" and "sunshine of your love." was a wankfest, but in that context it worked pretty well without really being locked in on bass and kick

Cream gave the idea of improvising in rock both a good and a bad name.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

I guess it depends who you are listening to.

Yeah, that would be professional bands.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

Cream gave the idea of improvising in rock both a good and a bad name.

The bass is locked onto the kick on this track and is on the rest of this album too. It’s pretty much a basic requirement for a major label record.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

I guess Cream is the exception. Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker were far too busy IMO.
All three of them were excellent in their own right but in a lot of their live stuff each was in their own world of noodling behind a syncopqted drum solo. To be fair that was a popular style of playing. They were known know as "the super group" and each one felt the need to be a star in their own right.
I never considered the bass and drums locked in. Even my favorite Cream performances "stepping out" and "sunshine of your love." was a wankfest, but in that context it worked pretty well without really being locked in on bass and kick

Steppin Out was the Yardbirds. But Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker were locked on the kick drum on all of their studio records.

Here was my favorite track from Disraeli Gears and the bass is locked to the kick, which doesn’t mean the bass isn’t playing outside of the kick as well at times in a melodic way.

 

[jimistone]

Steppin Out was the Yardbirds. But Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker were locked on the kick drum on all of their studio records.

Here was my favorite track from Disraeli Gears and the bass is locked to the kick, which doesn’t mean the bass isn’t playing outside of the kick as well at times in a melodic way.

Yeah, I'm familiar with strange brew...great recording as most of there studio was. The "stepping out" performance I was talking about is on "Cream live volume 2". (I'm also very familiar with the "stepping out" studio recording on the blues breakers Beano album.)
I'm mainly talking about their live sets. Jack Bruce sounds like a guitar player playing bass to me on most of it. Ginger Baker is all over the place, Clapton is all over the place, and Jack Bruce is all over the place simultaneously.
The jimi hendrix experience was in the same time frame. Jimi and Mitch were all over the place, going crazy, and Noel on bass was rock steady. He was locked in. (Even though he was literally a guitar player playing bass)
In a power trio SOMEBODY has to be rock steady or it sounds like chaos to me.
Don't get me wrong, I like Cream. I think Clapton was doing the finest guitar work of his entire career during that period.
Live though, I think they would have benefited from Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker doing less improvisional wanking behind him and more settling in on a solid groove giving him a better foundation.

lastly, they were all 3 into jazz, and progressive jazz was all the rage at the time.
Improvisional self indulgent wanking was expected by the audience. So, they may have just been giving people what they wanted.

 

[Scott Baxendale]

Don't get me wrong, I like Cream. I think Clapton was doing the finest guitar work of his entire career during that period.
Live though, I think they would have benefited from Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker doing less improvisional wanking behind him and more settling in on a solid groove giving him a better foundation.

You have to put their live performances into historical context. They were pushing the envelope every night, same as Jimi and others trying to expand on the blues. My point about the bass and kick being locked is about recording and producing records.

In a live setting where a large portion of the performance is based on improvisation then all the rules are there to break.

Had Jack and Ginger turned into Weyman & Watts it wouldn’t have been Cream any longer.

 

[grimtraveller]

You have to put their live performances into historical context. They were pushing the envelope every night, same as Jimi and others trying to expand on the blues

I agree with this.

My point about the bass and kick being locked is about recording and producing records

Believe it or not, I agree with this too.
But with a major caveat.
You correctly point out the historical context of bands like Cream and the Jimi Hendrix Experience and what is important about both those outfits is that their studio work is rather different from their live work. Like most artists, even the jazz ones, they had a certain studio discipline. Not many artists went into the studio and literally just improvised, outside of the free jazz and avant-garde musicians and in those genres, there really were no rules. In fact, that was often largely the point, to break away from rules and discipline. And there was the other important consideration - most engineers and producers weren't avant-gardists, they were technicians. Their modus operandi was to capture sounds that could be heard and that made sonic sense. That meant that there needed to be a certain level of maths and discipline in the way pieces of music were constructed so that all voices and instruments fitted together on the final result. This was simply the way through the 50s, '60s and beyond and to a large extent, it still is. In fact, the funny thing about this age of supposed musical freedom with all the wondrous technology available is just how rule-bound so much music is. Even rap, the musical end is anything but free. It observes rules as if they were going out of fashion. Punk was the same. They thought they were being oh so contrary when in actuality, so much punk, in championing minimalism and eschewing solos and bloatware, was as rule-bound as C&W.

But coming back to what was going on in the '60s, when the Hendrix's and the Creams were "breaking the rules" in live performance, there were artists listening to them and incorporating that into their compositions and ultimately on their records. Chris Squire and Bill Bruford didn't always "lock to the kick." Geddy Lee and Neil Peart didn't always "lock to the kick." Stewart Copeland and Sting didn't always "lock to the kick." Lee Dorman and Bobby Caldwell didn't always "lock to the kick." If by "locking to the kick" you mean that the kick provided that basic timing pulse and everything revolved around that {even if the kick was sometimes playing complex patterns} then I can see what you mean {although I still think there are enough examples over the years to have to say that it's nuanced and not absolute} though I have to point out that the statement I was reacting to and disagreeing with was

A real bass player understands above all else that the bass and kik must function as basically one instrument

There are many instances where this will be true and it makes the specific song a better one. But there are also many examples where this does not apply. What the likes of Entwistle, Bruce, Lesh, McCartney, Casady and Lake did for bass guitarists back in the '60s was to liberate the bass from its then-imposed confines that it had been placed in because of its newness. Granted, many went too far {in my opinion} as a result. But it helped bring about additional ways of thinking about what the bass guitar and the drums could do in a song.

Jack Bruce sounds like a guitar player playing bass to me on most of it

Many years ago, Anthony Jackson said something that always struck me as interesting:

"When I was first starting to play, most of the older musicians I met were adamant in calling the bass guitar just 'Fender' or 'electric bass,' and they treated it as a poor man's upright. But I consider it to be exactly what it is: a bass guitar. In the playing of the instrument, the bass guitar has more in common with the guitar than it does with the upright....There's something to be gained from both areas of instruction."

It's a view. The bass guitar is somewhere in that hinterland between the double bass and the guitar. And that made it unique among instruments and also meant that whatever approach was going to be applied to it was an evolving one, depending on a number of variables.

Jack Bruce sounds like a guitar player playing bass to me on most of it. Ginger Baker is all over the place, Clapton is all over the place, and Jack Bruce is all over the place simultaneously...Live though, I think they would have benefited from Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker doing less improvisional wanking behind him and more settling in on a solid groove giving him a better foundation

I agree in some of the songs but not on others, same for "Live Cream Vol 1." It's hit and miss, isn't it ? Sometimes, they go through breathtaking improvisations, and it sounds exhilarating. It's frequently jazz-rock, progressive rock and heavy metal rock all at the same time and I love it. But then in other sections, it gets too much and Jack in particular is the one that overdoes it. It doesn't really matter if Ginger and Eric are widdling and bonking all over the shop as long as they're not out of time. But when Jack does likewise, sometimes, it throws everything out of sync and for even wild music or free jazz or avant-garde stuff to sound good, there has to be some level of sync otherwise it's just unbalanced and uncomfortable.

In a power trio SOMEBODY has to be rock steady or it sounds like chaos to me

It doesn't always sound chaotic to me but at least one player being relatively steady is my preference.