Grace 101 or RNP (Define Color for me please)

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malcolm123

malcolm123

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Help me hear ( Or read ) the difference between the two.

I have done my searches and from what I gather the Grace is pretty transparent which I understand, But when I read that the RNP adds color, what kind of Color.

Im really looking for presence without really chaging the mic's chracteristics.

I only need 1 channel but 2 wouldnt hurt.

What type of color does the RNP add if it actually does add color?

The micpre would be primarily for vox about 98% of the time.

Genre = Hip Hop / R&B

I think i have narrowed it down to these 2 micpres.

I would bypass one of my console's built in pres ( Tascam TMD4000)


Thanks

Malcolm
 
Most people consider the RNP to be fairly transparent also. Maybe a bit more color than the Grace but compared to an API or a Neve uncolored. I don't own any of these but, this is what I have gathered from what I have read. I hope that helps. Maybe Fletcher or Harvey can help you as they would probably have experience with both.

Beez
 
Forget about the "color" arguments as every person has a different take on this. Every pre-amp is colored as there is no reference to say what is and isn't a "true" sound. Your room is colored, your mic is colored and your mixer/everything in the sound chain is colored. Also, your tape recorder/digital recorder/DAW etc. is colored. So, choose the one that sounds good to YOU as no one here can tell you any different. I know you probably cannot try both of these units. That is almost always the case. You will just have to trust one and go with it. Arguing "colored" over "transparent" is a very subjective thing because, after all, your ears also color the sound.
 
See if you can go to your local store and a/b them, or if you have the cash let an online dealer know what you're doing and pick up both and return the one you don't like.
 
acorec said:
Forget about the "color" arguments as every person has a different take on this. Every pre-amp is colored as there is no reference to say what is and isn't a "true" sound. Your room is colored, your mic is colored and your mixer/everything in the sound chain is colored. Also, your tape recorder/digital recorder/DAW etc. is colored. So, choose the one that sounds good to YOU as no one here can tell you any different. I know you probably cannot try both of these units. That is almost always the case. You will just have to trust one and go with it. Arguing "colored" over "transparent" is a very subjective thing because, after all, your ears also color the sound.
Click to expand...

I was kinda thinking the same thing. With all of the Pro Audio Gear crap there are just tooo many variables. What works for one may not work for another.

Since I cannot a/b them from my locale,, I was hoping some one would give me an idea (Experienced idea) as to how they differ in regards to coloration. I want straight to the point presence and quality. No additions needed at this time.

Thanks

Malcolm
 
malcolm123 said:
I was kinda thinking the same thing. With all of the Pro Audio Gear crap there are just tooo many variables. What works for one may not work for another.

Since I cannot a/b them from my locale,, I was hoping some one would give me an idea (Experienced idea) as to how they differ in regards to coloration. I want straight to the point presence and quality. No additions needed at this time.

Thanks

Malcolm
Click to expand...

OK. The RNP is the most popular amongst those in the know. It is either colored or transparent. I have one and to my ears it is colored in the high-end. However, the RNP is a very good pre-amp that does a nice job with everything you can throw at it. Probably the best for a do-it-all kind of pre. You can EQ the final recording to make it anything you want.
 
acorec said:
OK. The RNP is the most popular amongst those in the know. It is either colored or transparent. I have one and to my ears it is colored in the high-end. However, the RNP is a very good pre-amp that does a nice job with everything you can throw at it. Probably the best for a do-it-all kind of pre. You can EQ the final recording to make it anything you want.
Click to expand...

AHHH

Straight to the point. I gotcha !!

Thanks acorec

Malcolm
 
acorec said:
Every pre-amp is colored as there is no reference to say what is and isn't a "true" sound.
Click to expand...

not really... there is a reference: a comparison of the signal before hitting the preamp, and the signal after the preamp. while it is true that all preamps "color" the sound in terms of changing the signal from input to output (besides simply amping the singal), there are some that do it more than others, and there are ways to measure these changes.

"color" here usually refers to changes in the signal's frequencies, and how those changes manifest themselves over time. (if the preamp accentuates the bass, or adds some highs) there are also some other sources of color, like the speed at which the signal is amplified (which affects the preamp's transient response) and distortion.

so comparing an amp like the grace to a neve--- you can accurately say which one is "closer to the truth" in terms of not changing the signal besides simply making it louder.

of course, there is measurable electrical truth, and subjective listening experience.... and those are two totally different things....
 
Im really looking for presence without really chaging the mic's chracteristics.

Then, in this case, I would go for the Grace 101.

"Color" is used to describe a certain characteristic of audio gear that imparts a particular quality to the signal. Color is caused/achieved by the use of transformers, IC/opamps and other components. Iron is used in transformers and gives signals that pass through the iron a certain characteristic. That's why you also see the word "iron" used to describe to sound of certain mic pres.

Neve pres are often described as "heavy on the transformers" or "you can really hear the iron" and even become more colored as you step on the gain.

The RNP, would probably be in the "clean" category, but still imparts some noticable color. I would personally call the RNP a "slightly colored" pre. Color is fine and often desired, but when it's not, then you want a "transparent" mic pre. Then you might look into pres by companies like Millennia, Grace, Earthworks, Sytek, Martech.

In order to really have a gauge on what some of these loose adjectives and desciptions imply, you need some first-hand experience with some of the gear. I recently commented to Fletcher that the DACS Clarity MicAmp is as transparent as Millennia with the punch of API. So, he had a ballpark idea because he's had first-hand experience with Millennia and API mic pres. If you have no experience listening to these pres, then you have no reference.

Here's a list of adjectives I've been compiling that I've heard or seen used to describe the characteristics of mic pres and other assorted audio equipment.

Fat
Warm
Crisp
Clean
Transparent
Killer
Airy
Punchy
Thick
Brittle
Cold
Harsh
Creamy
Distorted
Heavy
Fast
Slow
Compressed
Colored
Tight
Focused
Clear
Natural
Fucking Amazing
Overdriven
Edgy
Shitty
Detailed
Big
Tight
Muddy
Wide
Hazy
Fleshy
Dark
Butterscotch
Sweet
Beefy
Valve-like

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
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eeldip said:
not really... there is a reference: a comparison of the signal before hitting the preamp, and the signal after the preamp. while it is true that all preamps "color" the sound in terms of changing the signal from input to output (besides simply amping the singal), there are some that do it more than others, and there are ways to measure these changes.

"color" here usually refers to changes in the signal's frequencies, and how those changes manifest themselves over time. (if the preamp accentuates the bass, or adds some highs) there are also some other sources of color, like the speed at which the signal is amplified (which affects the preamp's transient response) and distortion.

so comparing an amp like the grace to a neve--- you can accurately say which one is "closer to the truth" in terms of not changing the signal besides simply making it louder.

of course, there is measurable electrical truth, and subjective listening experience.... and those are two totally different things....
Click to expand...

Yes. You are right. But, how many people use any pre-amp in an ideal acoustic environment? Really, in a normal home recording situation, our ears play big tricks on us. The mic "hears" a truer sound than our ears and incorporated in that sound is the source, the room and reflections that are out of control. So, when people say that the pre-amp is "coloring" the sound, they probably are being fooled by the binaural environment as opposed to the monaural sound that the mic actually hears. That explains the mixed reviews of "colored" vs "transparent" sounds of the same pre-amps. Really, the only way to evaluate a pre-amp is in your room and with your signal chain. In a pro studio with a close to ideal acoustic environment, this all changes.
 
Again

Thanks all. Iam assorbing all of it!

So what I gather " color " refers to frequency changes from the original source before entering the preamp.

IE, The RNP "colors" with a little boost in the high end freq?

Question though, Dumb ? maybe not ?

But couldnt you just do a aorec stated and use a little eq at the end to remove what the RNP may have added, in term making the RNP transparent ? Am I making sense?

This is good stuff

Thanks

Malcolm
 
Hey Dot! Never heard "Butterscotch" before, but when I do, I'll let ya know. :D


Malcolm, in my humble opinion, what I happen to think of as the ultimate test between colored and transparent is this: With more transparent mic pres, you will hear more distinction between your mics. That's really the test. If you've got a really good, uncolored mic pre, you'll probably be surprized at how well you can hear the difference between mic A in your collection and mic B in your collection. And these differences will become more noticeable.

With more colorful mic pres (or other gear for that matter), you'll start noticing more similarities between your mics that you didn't notice existed. :D Or, probably more accurately, you'll start noticing a certain sonic signature . . . but it will more than likely be in your mixes, and not necessarily in solo mode.
 
Ha! chessrock, "butterscotch" came from Steve Albini when he was talking to Fletcher about his thoughts on the Josephson C-42. I'd have to say I agree and know exactly what he means. The Audix SCX-1 is another "butterscotch" sounding mic. The C4's also have some of that characteristic.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions
 
The RNP is supposed to be a great preamp - esp. for the price. I say "supposed to be" because I haven't picked one up yet myself. One suggestion: Pick it up from mercenary.com. Try it out. If you don't like it (and I'll bet you do), send it back. Mercenary has an awesome return policy. You really need to hear it yourself to judge properly.

-lee-
 
i've got an RNP and used it for a while now. anything i've plug into it has sounded good. any source (i.e. guitars, vocals, drum overheads, electric guitars) have sounded good. great overall pre. now from what you've said you want i think the RNP is perfect, but i've never heard the grace 101. if reports are true, i think the grace may be better for you than the RNP.
 
acorec said:
OK. The RNP is the most popular amongst those in the know.
Click to expand...

Where does it say THAT???

Most "popular" based on what parameters???? Price? Performance? Features? Boyish good looks?

And who are "those" "in the know"???
 
I've got both, and would definitely characterize the RNP as "lightly colored". For classical or acoustic work, I would probably choose the Grace, as it would have a little less effect on the mic sound (which would likely be a DPA or Earthworks for that style) and therefor the room sound. For blues, jazz, rock, r&b and so on, the RNP would probably be first call.
Hmm... I''ll have to put up a matched pair (say, QTC-1s) on an acoustic guitar and put one through each preamp to see what a true A-B comparison tells me vs. my impressions for general use... I'll post the results if they're interesting.


Scott
 
DigitMus said:
I've got both, and would definitely characterize the RNP as "lightly colored". For classical or acoustic work, I would probably choose the Grace, as it would have a little less effect on the mic sound (which would likely be a DPA or Earthworks for that style) and therefor the room sound. For blues, jazz, rock, r&b and so on, the RNP would probably be first call.
Hmm... I''ll have to put up a matched pair (say, QTC-1s) on an acoustic guitar and put one through each preamp to see what a true A-B comparison tells me vs. my impressions for general use... I'll post the results if they're interesting.


Scott
Click to expand...


Thanks DigitMus,
Finally somebody with both. That would be great if you did a little test. Hey, when you hook it all up after tracking your acoustics, shout a little Check 1 - 2 pretty loud into each for me. LOL That would be cool as hell. I was leaning towards the Grace, but since you have both ( and yeah to each his own, I know) Im thinking that the color may help from the RNP based on the genre I track. Ill be looking for you posts.

Thanks everybody.

Oh 1 more question, how can I rack those little puppies?

Malcolm
 
c7sus said:
Where does it say THAT???

Most "popular" based on what parameters???? Price? Performance? Features? Boyish good looks?

And who are "those" "in the know"???
Click to expand...

The RNP is favoured by those who have them. They are "in the know"

A select chosen few who have ponied up the bucks to own a legend. I live in an urban area, so to me, the RNP is an urban legend.
 
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