getting the whole guitar in tune

  • Thread starter Thread starter FALKEN
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FALKEN said:
ok...I am with you. I don't think my guitars fall into the rare category of not being able to be made to play in tune. I guess its possible but for argument's sake and the sake of statistics lets say that my guitars are able to get in tune. Lets also assume that I want every note to fret in tune to a tuner, regardless of temperment problems and what 'sounds' right. my ears are accostomed to equal temperment anyway... if you have set up thousands of guitars, what steps would you take to tackle this issue?
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I've pretty much said how it should be done.

Set the neck relief first, then check the nut slots to make sure the string hight is around the same as the first fret definitely not lower. Check for any high or low frets, Check neck angle, string up, reset the relief and adjust the saddle to play in tune. All this is done with good strings and the action set at the appropriate hight for that guitar and string gauge. Any intonation problems you have after doing this properly will be down to one of two things. First, the very nature of 12 ET and the physics of the vibrating string. These you can't change just work within. Or secound down to your own expectations and your ability to detect subtle tuning discrepancies. A third and less likely cause would be a fundemental problem with the guitar such as misplaced frets or bridge.

Sometimes I wish electronic tuners had never been invented because they lead to people identifying problems that are not there or have always been there. A good musician learns to tune his instrument so it is evenly OUT of tune throughout. This is best achieved after a good setup has put everything in place to achieve it. If you continue to try and get every note on your fretboard in tune with an electronic tuner you are wasting your time. What you need to do is even out the neck to play out of tune so that they are barely discernible if at all.

Last tip is to learn to rely on your ears and not an electronic tuner.
 
crazydoc said:
As has been noted above, a guitar is never in tune - it's always a compromise. I never use a tuner, except to get a reference pitch. Here's how I tune my guitars: http://www.stagepass.com/tuning.html

Here's another interesting link on intonation and tuning: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/coleman005/intonati.htm

Another: http://hubpages.com/hub/Equal-Temperament-Guitar-Tuning

Maybe your ears are more sensitive to frequency variation than many others.
You just have to accept that it's not always going to sound perfect.
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Fist link, I remember reading that GAL article. It's a good one.

Secound link, OK but not perfect.

Third link, Absolutely spot on. In fact it's so good I'm going to post it again. :D It should be required reading for anyone wanting to understand 12 ET and guitar tuning.

EVERYBODY READ IT AND READ IT AGAIN

=> => Equal Temperament Guitar Tuning.<= <=
 
I'm didn't see it mentioned though it's possible my short attention span may have made me miss it :o, but pickups set too high, especially single coil pickups, can wreak havoc with intonation and cause other problems as well... 'wolf' tones, ghost notes, poor sustain, fret buzz etc. etc.
 
muttley600 said:
Third link, Absolutely spot on. In fact it's so good I'm going to post it again. :D It should be required reading for anyone wanting to understand 12 ET and guitar tuning.

EVERYBODY READ IT AND READ IT AGAIN

=> => Equal Temperament Guitar Tuning.<= <=
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i'm reading it now. this is good stuff.

muttley, i recently attempted to set the intonation of my guitar and it seemed no matter how far i moved the saddles either way, the pitch at the 12th fret didn't change. they're all a bit flat by about the same amount. i would have expected SOME change in pitch at the 12 fret when adjusting the saddles but it didn't.

what is the first thing you would recommend looking at? i have the relief and action set where they should be and the guitar plays very well. i'm tempted to just leave it but i'd really like to get it right.

bw, it's an old carvin dc-135 with a set neck and the old bridges with fine tuners.


thanks.
 
castlerock said:
i'm reading it now. this is good stuff.

muttley, i recently attempted to set the intonation of my guitar and it seemed no matter how far i moved the saddles either way, the pitch at the 12th fret didn't change. they're all a bit flat by about the same amount. i would have expected SOME change in pitch at the 12 fret when adjusting the saddles but it didn't.




thanks.
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Well to honest I would expect change in intonation, its down to the way a vibrating string behaves and there is no secret to it. Are you talking about getting the guitar tuned evenly or that you have distinct intonation issues?

Assuming that you have a decent break angle over the string saddle you have several fixed constants. The string length at any given fret, the string material thickness and stiffness and the tension in the string, they are what determine the pitch of the note. Aside from the increased tension you introduce by pushing the string onto the fret, which for the sake of argument we can ignore for now.

If you change any of these you would logically change the pitch. So by moving the saddle back or forwards you are in effect changing the string length. Thats the physics of a vibrating string in a nut shell.

If I get to a point where things aren't doing what I expect them to do I go back to basics. Try this.

Double check your neck relief. For this exercise less is better but you need just a visible gap around the 7th-9th fret when you hold down the 2nd and 14th. The more relief the more tension you put on the string as you fret it, at least below the 12th fret. Do this with good condition strings. Set the action at a decent hight.

It could be worth just checking the nut slots are cut right. Hold down the string at the 3rd fret and you should barely see a gap between string and 1st fret.

Assuming your using a set of 10's set the D and G strings at exactly twice the distance to the 12th fret to the nut. That is your "quoted" string length. Set the Low E back the same distance plus 2mm and the treble forward about a mm. Set the A and the B so that they sit in a line across the bridge.Now check the intonation at the 12th fret on each string and let me know what you find.

What you have done is got a good approximation of the way an acoustic saddle would be placed before final compensation and adjusted for lower action and lighter strings. I'll say again you need to be sure the relief on the neck is right before hand, and the nut slots are cut right..

This is not a way to set intonation on an adjustable bridge but is a good starting point for troubleshooting. From here you would asses each string and move the saddle back or forwards to get the 12th fret harmonic right.

Its also worth tuning the guitar to a single string when setting intonation. The method described in the first link of Crazydocs post is about the same as the way I do it. Make sure the 12th fret harmonic is right before you do or you will pass errors on down the tuning from string to string.

Let us know what results this produces. After all it is just physics. ;)
 
castlerock said:
muttley, i recently attempted to set the intonation of my guitar and it seemed no matter how far i moved the saddles either way, the pitch at the 12th fret didn't change. they're all a bit flat by about the same amount. i would have expected SOME change in pitch at the 12 fret when adjusting the saddles but it didn't.
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I'm not muttley, but as far as I know, this is a physical impossibility if you're setting the intonation like this:

Play a 12th fret harmonic on a string and then compare this with a note fretted at the 12th fret. The two notes should be exactly the same. If the fretted note is sharp, then the saddle needs to be moved back towards the tailpiece. If the fretted note is flat, the saddle needs to be moved the oppostite way - forwards towards the pick-ups. When the two notes are the same, the string has the correct intonation set.
 
crazydoc said:
I'm not muttley, but as far as I know, this is a physical impossibility if you're setting the intonation like this:

Play a 12th fret harmonic on a string and then compare this with a note fretted at the 12th fret. The two notes should be exactly the same. If the fretted note is sharp, then the saddle needs to be moved back towards the tailpiece. If the fretted note is flat, the saddle needs to be moved the oppostite way - forwards towards the pick-ups. When the two notes are the same, the string has the correct intonation set.
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Ha Ha, careful they will be calling you a big know it all soon....:D But your right, it is a physical impossibility. Just to add, the position of the harmonic should/will be just about over the 12th fret. Anywhere else and you have more worrying problem.

Great link by the way thanks, it's in my sig now until all these intonation threads fade away
 
muttley600 said:
Well to honest I would expect change in intonation, its down to the way a vibrating string behaves and there is no secret to it. Are you talking about getting the guitar tuned evenly or that you have distinct intonation issues?
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yea, me too. i 've set intonation on guitars before and i've never had this problem. wierd.

muttley600 said:
Let us know what results this produces. After all it is just physics. ;)
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will do. i'll be at work for a couple of more days but i'll try to report back by wednesday.

thanks for taking the time to explain the baseline adjustments of the saddles.
this is one of those bridges where the saddles are adjustable and also has allen screws on each end to move the whole assembly. never dealt with these before.
 
that link is cool. but there are two things I should point out.

First is that audible tuning on stage can be one of the most unprofessional show-killing acts one can make. At least that is my opinion, and I always tune to a tuner silently while on stage, usually serveral times per performance.

Second, is that did I mention that all of the strings are sharp low on the neck and all of the strings are flat high on the neck? I am struggling to understand this because I don't fully understand the mechanics of a neck adjustment.

I apoligize if it seems like there are too many "intonation threads". I am in a rut because I must be doing something wrong. It is probably a combination of the relief and the action. I am trying to do this based on things I am reading in books and websites and obviously that can't make up for or come close to the experience that some of you have.

I am just hoping to get a direction as to where I might have messed up, given the issue I have described. The problem is not a matter of 2 cents up or down, I am talking like 10-15 cents in some cases. It is causing the guitar and bass to be out of tune with each other on certain chords and notes such as "C" and "G" when fretted at the 3rd fret. You could see how this would kill a performance very quickly. Thanks again for all of the help.
 
FALKEN said:
that link is cool. but there are two things I should point out.

First is that audible tuning on stage can be one of the most unprofessional show-killing acts one can make. At least that is my opinion, and I always tune to a tuner silently while on stage, usually serveral times per performance.
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Once you get in the habit of tuning to a reference string as described in those links it takes no longer than tuning any other way. Keep in mind that your tuner is not going tune the guitar at every point on the fretboard. Use it to tune you A=44O and then use a method as described in those links. Once again, an electronic tuner is not the answer, guitar intonation is a compromise even on a well setup instrument.
Second, is that did I mention that all of the strings are sharp low on the neck and all of the strings are flat high on the neck? I am struggling to understand this because I don't fully understand the mechanics of a neck adjustment.

I apoligize if it seems like there are too many "intonation threads". I am in a rut because I must be doing something wrong. It is probably a combination of the relief and the action. I am trying to do this based on things I am reading in books and websites and obviously that can't make up for or come close to the experience that some of you have.
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No apology needed, you are not in a rut you are just coming to the realisation that guitar intonation is a complex issue and there is no "one size fits all" solution.

Yes it is a combination of all things. You will need to get the relief, nut, saddle compensation right to maximise the tuning. Setting up a guitar to play in tune is not rocket science but it is not as simple as some would have you believe. It is all down to what you consider acceptable. You need to start from the basics, set the relief first, then check the nut, use good strings and set the action. Then you can set the intonation at the 12th fret using your saddles. Having done all that correctly if you tune as described in those links you will be most of the way there. If you still have problems then there is possibly another issue. Several of us have said that the problem you describe is not at all common, that is because it defies the way physics works. I would need to be sure you have everything else done correctly before being able suggest why you might have a more severe problem. If you have made all the checks I and others have suggested,have you? then the diagnosis points to a problem such as wrong scale length, misplaced frets etc. This is highly unlikely but still possible. What is the string length and is the 12th fret exactly twice that of the distance from nut to 12th fret plus of minus compensation at the nut?

I am just hoping to get a direction as to where I might have messed up, given the issue I have described. The problem is not a matter of 2 cents up or down, I am talking like 10-15 cents in some cases. It is causing the guitar and bass to be out of tune with each other on certain chords and notes such as "C" and "G" when fretted at the 3rd fret. You could see how this would kill a performance very quickly. Thanks again for all of the help.
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You haven't messed up you are learning. You have a discerning ear and you need to persist to get it right. Do things in the order I describe and understand what is being said here and you will get there. You must make sure you have done the things people suggest or you cannot rule them out and will never pin down the problem.
 
If it is intonated properly and your first few frets are sharp there is a good chance the slots in you nut are not cut low enough for your set up.
I've glanced through this thread a couple of times and never seen the brand
or model of guitar your having this problem with.
Would also need to know if you prefer low action, med, high?
You shouldn't be able to get anything over the thickness between the top of the
first fret and the bottom of the string. If you have to push the string down further than that it is for sure going too be sharp by the time it touches the fret.
 
muttley600 said:
Once again, an electronic tuner is not the answer, guitar intonation is a compromise even on a well setup instrument.
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An electronic tuner is just fine for many folks to keep themselves "close enough" on stage and to be able to do a quick check and correction without being heard. Overwhelming numbers of musicians use them and no one's been killed yet to my knowledge. ;^)
 
dementedchord said:
just a question from an interested pianist... any of you guys use the buzz feiten system??? i saw him at namm once and it seemed to work pretty cool though i can remember what it was exactly he does...
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I've played a guitar with that system. A rep brought one into the shop I used to work at. All the guitar players agreed everything was so in tune up the neck it sounded wrong. Like too good. :p It takes some getting used to, since we all unconsciously tweak strings a bit as we play to bring things in tune better. Like I always push the G string a bit since it goes a little flat above the 12th on my strat. I don't know how it would perform as a retrofit on the average guitar, I just played the one demo, which was obviously going to be set up as perfect as possible.


ps thanks for the posters in this thread, some real good info here.
 
ggunn said:
An electronic tuner is just fine for many folks to keep themselves "close enough" on stage and to be able to do a quick check and correction without being heard. Overwhelming numbers of musicians use them and no one's been killed yet to my knowledge. ;^)
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Ok then just tune to an electronic tuner it will make the necessary adjustments to make sure your guitar is intonated along the entire length of the fretboard on all strings. Problem solved. The guitar in question and Falkern is imagining it all. Also he's going to be putting his life at risk by learning to tune his guitar correctly and develop his ear :rolleyes:
 
muttley600 said:
Ok then just tune to an electronic tuner it will make the necessary adjustments to make sure your guitar is intonated along the entire length of the fretboard on all strings. Problem solved. The guitar in question and Falkern is imagining it all. Also he's going to be putting his life at risk by learning to tune his guitar correctly and develop his ear :rolleyes:
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Hyperbole aside, I was replying to your response to the poster who said that an electronic tuner is useful for a quick and silent adjustment on stage; I agree with him and so do countless other musicians.

Intonation adjustments should not be made on stage. Rolleyes right back atcha. ;^)

I have no clue as to why Falkern's guitar is sharp below the octave and flat above it. Maybe he is imagining it, I dunno. Maybe he replaced the neck with one with the wrong scale, or maybe the frets were placed incorrectly due to a screwup by the maunufacturer.
 
ggunn said:
Hyperbole aside, I was replying to your response to the poster who said that an electronic tuner is useful for a quick and silent adjustment on stage; I agree with him and so do countless other musicians.

Intonation adjustments should not be made on stage. Rolleyes right back atcha. ;^)

I have no clue as to why Falkern's guitar is sharp below the octave and flat above it. Maybe he is imagining it, I dunno. Maybe he replaced the neck with one with the wrong scale, or maybe the frets were placed incorrectly due to a screwup by the maunufacturer.
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Yep, all those possibilities have been intimated at. They could be the case. It would be unusual and I still think it's best to make sure he has thoroughly examined all the possible setup problems that result in bad intonation. The problem he describes is likely a combination of many things, high nut, incorrect relief, incorrect neck angle and badly adjusted saddles, bad strings,an understanding of intonation as a whole and the most effective manner of tuning the guitar to minimise tuning problems. 99% of the time intonation problems can be pinned down to one, or a combination of these.

A tuner is fine to get you in tune on stage once the guitar has the intonation set correctly, I use one and then adjust some strings to the A string as a reference.. With a guitar that is not intonated correctly a tuner is worse than useless. I don't think we are disagreeing though. Did you read the links that Crazydoc posted they are good and explain well why it is good practice to tune to a single reference string?

Shall we start being nice to each other again now ;)
 
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