getting the whole guitar in tune

[MCI2424]

Sorry if sounding a bit obtuse I'm not trying I promise. I was just asking because there are a few understandings of what perfect pitch is and many people describe it in different ways.

What you are describing is possibly more accurately called absolute pitch, the ability to identify a given frequency from memory with no reference. Perfect pitch used to mean the ability to produce intervals without regard to a specific frequency in other words pick any frequency and sing a fifth or third at will. Relative pitch describes the ability to produce a given interval in response to a given frequency. These definitions have been kind of condensed into what is now generally termed perfect pitch and could describe any of above.

If you have what I described above as absolute pitch, are you saying that you cannot hear inaccuracies in intervals or certain intervals on an equal temperament guitar? Because that seems to be a contradiction. To a greater or lesser degree those tempered intervals are always going to be there no matter how well the guitar is set up. It is the nature of the beast. What tuning method do you use?

I asked about the "perfectly in tune" thing because Equal temperament by definition is not a perfect tuning system mathematically or physically. It is a compromise even if a very close and symmetrical one it is not perfect by any means.

All I am saying that after starting the guitar at 5 years old and playing, building guitars and recording for over 40 years, I can tune a guitar with no tuner at all and I can tell when a guitar is out of tune with the playing of a single chord. I sold a strat that was 9 cents out on a single fret and the guitar tech as well as several Berlkley musicians could not believe that it bugged me so bad. No-one believed me until the guitar was put on a scope and found to be out. Whatever the theory, temperment etc., there are guitars that are perfectly in tune and those that are not (I am talking about the conventional "in-tune" that has been around for ever). It takes me weeks to set-up a guitar to be perfect (for me).

 

[muttley600]

(I am talking about the conventional "in-tune" that has been around for ever). It takes me weeks to set-up a guitar to be perfect (for me).

There is the rub. It hasn't been around forever. Mid to late 19th century before it was widely adopted.

In terms of musical history 12 ET is a relatively new adoption. It's hard to pin down exactly when it was adopted but it was mainly to allow compositional changes of key within a single piece. It was known about in western music as early as the 15th century but was dismissed because it wasn't pure enough. Other ET systems were tried and in some cases they were experimented with 31 ET was found to be acceptable but viol players and lutenists didn't want 31 frets on their instruments apparently. What they did was to learn to move their gut frets up and down the neck according to the key they were playing in, but thats a digression.

All I am saying that after starting the guitar at 5 years old and playing, building guitars and recording for over 40 years, I can tune a guitar with no tuner at all and I can tell when a guitar is out of tune with the playing of a single chord.

I'm not disputing that you have absolute/perfect/relative pitch and can tune your guitar by ear without a tuner in fact thats exactly what I'm suggesting people learn to do using a single reference string of known pitch and good intonation. What I'm confused about is when you said

All my guitars go into perfect tune because they are set-up by me. You have to start from the beginning and go through a thorough setup to achieve a perfectly tuned guitar. I learned a long time ago to use tuners.

..

I sold a strat that was 9 cents out on a single fret and the guitar tech as well as several Berlkley musicians could not believe that it bugged me so bad.

If you mean the guitar you mentioned earlier that had this problem at the first fret. That is a fairly common issue with many guitars. Some makers actually introduce nut compensation to get round this. There is an article on it somewhere I'll see if I dig it up. I've tried it but found good nut setup to be far more important. By the way I have never seen a strat with the frets in the wrong place as you described earlier and I've seen a lot of em, how far out were they?

Whatever the theory, temperment etc., there are guitars that are perfectly in tune and those that are not

Once again there is no perfectly in tune guitar, there are guitars that play out of tune well enough to satisfy your ear. You cannot build a guitar that will play perfectly in tune in 12 ET I wish I could.

I'm not fighting against you here or saying you don't have very specific tuning standards, I'm sure you have. All I'm pointing out is that to get close to a well intonated guitar you need to first understand the tuning system we use today. A little about the physics of the vibrating string and the basics of how different setup issues effect the intonation and the tuning of a guitar. Non of these can be denied or ignored.







.

 

[crazydoc]

I can tune a guitar with no tuner at all and I can tell when a guitar is out of tune with the playing of a single chord.

This is the crux of the matter here. You can get a single chord in perfect tune, but then other chords will be out of tune, some of them gratingly so. So you have to compromise to get all the chords sounding approximately in tune, but none of them are in perfect tune, and you just have to learn to accept it

For instance, tune your guitar so open G sounds perfect. Now play an open A. That B string sounds sharp. Tune it down and play open G - the string is now flat. You can't tune the guitar so that string is in tune in both chords.

Here is a quote from one of the links I posted earlier:

Actually this discussion and the following suggestions are for those players who have been tuning to pure intervals. When the steps have been followed correctly the guitar will be as perfectly tuned as it could be in the hands of a professional. Nevertheless, when you have finished, your sensitive ear may notice that on each major chord form there is always one tone slightly high. If you start adjusting a particular string on a certain chord form, you only compound the problem because then the next chord form will be completely objectionable. Tune the guitar as instructed below and let it stand. How to help your ear accept equal temperament: It is easier to face a problem if we are prepared in advance and expect it. If you are one of those persons who is sensitive to pure intervals, here is what you are going to notice on an absolutely perfectly tuned guitar in equal temperament: Play an open E major chord. Listen to G# on the third string and you most likely will want to lower it very slightly. Don't do it. Ignore it. Enjoy the overall beauty and resonance of chord just as does the pianist.

That troublesome second string: Play an open position A major chord. Listen to the C# on the second string and you may want to lower it slightly. Play a first position C chord and listen to the E on the first string and fourth string at 2. These tones are slightly higher than your ear would like.

Now play an open position G chord. Listen to B on the second string. Yes, it would sound a little better if lowered ever so slightly. Why not try it? Slack off the second string a couple of vibrations and notice what beautiful G chord results. Now play the C chord and with that lowered second string, and you are going to dislike the rough C and E a lot more than before. Take the open B, second string back up to equal temperament so that it will be equally acceptable on all forms. Learn to expect and accept the slight sharpness of the major third in each chord (and oppositely, the flatness of the minor third in each minor chord). Train your ear to accept tempered intervals and you will be much happier with your guitar.

 

[crazydoc]

Greetings - I was finding lots of hits on my Equal Temperament Guitar Tuning article, coming from this site, so I've joined up to join in. Thanks to Muttley in particular for all the signature links. Much appreciated!

Thanks for your insight. If you have anything to add/clarify, feel free to jump in.

 

[muttley600]

I've been waiting for Dragon to get signature options back online so I can put this link in there alongside the ones there that crazydoc flagged. Did I tell everyone to read them.

Anyway this is a good read and relatively easy to understand. Also it's true in all respects.

EQUAL TEMPERAMENTS AND JUST INTONATIONS As They Apply To Fretted Instruments

It gives a good explanation of the difference between the two and why 12 ET is preferred on fretted instruments in particular.

 

[THX1136]

Thanks to everyone for participating. A ton of good information! I own a 6 and a 12 string. I understand a lot of the info shared and I've learned to get the guitars sounding okay for me and with anyone else I'm playing with. I'm heavy handed when I fret so I've moved to 11s to compensate, but the tuning has benefitted since the heavier strings help counter my death grip on the neck. The 2nd and 3rd string wackiness I used to experience is next to nothing now. Again, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Paraglider]

Scales vs intervals

It's maybe just worth mentioning that if you tune a properly set up instrument to Equal Temperament, every instance of any named note (e.g. A, C#, etc) will be exactly the same (plus or minus an octave or two). That is, any A anywhere on the fretboard will be 110, 220, 440, 880 Hz. None of them will be out with respect to each other. None of the E's will be an exact multiple of 165 (110 x 1.5), but every E will be an exact multiple of 164.81,the tempered fifth derived from concert A. So every E is in perfect tune with every other E. And so on for every other note.

Before 12 ET was adopted, musicians had great problems. It's true that lutenists used to adjust their tied frets for different keys. But it wss well known that "lutenists spend half their lives tuning their lutes and the other half playing out of tune"

Incidentally, the small differences between the tempered and just tone on any fretted note are well within the bending range, and, in single note solo playing, are normally completely masked by vibrato. Unfretted string players hardly ever play 'straight'. Most cellists use a vibrato you could drive a bus through.

 

[crazydoc]

This whole discussion is why I play double bass, bowed saw, and dobro instead of guitar.

 

[Slowrider]

Tuning is like women...if you can't do it...you don't get it.

A guy could write pages and pages of the physics of tunings, but you won't be able to play those pages.

Tune it, play it.

 

[Lectric_Lab]

Or you could just buy one of these.....

http://www.gibson.com/robotguitar

 

[MCI2424]

There is the rub. It hasn't been around forever. Mid to late 19th century before it was widely adopted.

In terms of musical history 12 ET is a relatively new adoption. It's hard to pin down exactly when it was adopted but it was mainly to allow compositional changes of key within a single piece. It was known about in western music as early as the 15th century but was dismissed because it wasn't pure enough. Other ET systems were tried and in some cases they were experimented with 31 ET was found to be acceptable but viol players and lutenists didn't want 31 frets on their instruments apparently. What they did was to learn to move their gut frets up and down the neck according to the key they were playing in, but thats a digression.

I'm not disputing that you have absolute/perfect/relative pitch and can tune your guitar by ear without a tuner in fact thats exactly what I'm suggesting people learn to do using a single reference string of known pitch and good intonation. What I'm confused about is when you said..

If you mean the guitar you mentioned earlier that had this problem at the first fret. That is a fairly common issue with many guitars. Some makers actually introduce nut compensation to get round this. There is an article on it somewhere I'll see if I dig it up. I've tried it but found good nut setup to be far more important. By the way I have never seen a strat with the frets in the wrong place as you described earlier and I've seen a lot of em, how far out were they?Once again there is no perfectly in tune guitar, there are guitars that play out of tune well enough to satisfy your ear. You cannot build a guitar that will play perfectly in tune in 12 ET I wish I could.

I'm not fighting against you here or saying you don't have very specific tuning standards, I'm sure you have. All I'm pointing out is that to get close to a well intonated guitar you need to first understand the tuning system we use today. A little about the physics of the vibrating string and the basics of how different setup issues effect the intonation and the tuning of a guitar. Non of these can be denied or ignored.







.

Actually, I learned a long time ago to use tuners to tune a guitar, bass etc. to recorded tracks. I can't seem to tune by ear but a tuner makes this easy everytime if I originally tuned the track instruments to the same tuner. All of my guitars only sound very slightly out-of-tune with chords in the extreme upper part of the neck, otherwise they sound dead-on in every part of the neck I actually use. i think the original poster was asking about gross out-of-tune changes with chords at lower to upper registers and from the first to the 12th frets, the guitar should be in tune. If it is not, it needs a proper setup.

 

[muttley600]

Actually, I learned a long time ago to use tuners to tune a guitar, bass etc. to recorded tracks.

Sorry but I'm getting mighty confused over what your saying or claiming. How do these two statements square up?

I can't seem to tune by ear but a tuner makes this easy everytime if I originally tuned the track instruments to the same tuner.

I can tune a guitar with no tuner at all and I can tell when a guitar is out of tune with the playing of a single chord.

If you had absolute pitch you wouldn't need a tuner unless your using it in some fashion that is out of the ordinary.

All of my guitars only sound very slightly out-of-tune with chords in the extreme upper part of the neck, otherwise they sound dead-on in every part of the neck I actually use.

Yep thats what I've been trying to explain all along. They are out of tune in the lower positions as well you just can't hear it. Thats what 12 tone ET does. It evens out the intervals so all are close but very few if any are perfect. The nature of the guitar, 12 tone ET and the vibrating string makes this worse the higher up the neck you go. Tuning to one reference note or string with good intonation helps minimise these problems.

i think the original poster was asking about gross out-of-tune changes with chords at lower to upper registers and from the first to the 12th frets, the guitar should be in tune. If it is not, it needs a proper setup.

Yes and thats why I was explaining to him the most common causes of such problems in terms of setup, the nature of 12 ET and strings.

I still don't really accept your original premise that I questioned

True the scale is tempered, but a guitar should still go into perfect tune if it is made right and setup right.

Maybe you didn't mean it like that because as I say I'm a bit confused about where your coming from. It could just be just another of my BIG misunderstandings..

All I've been pointing out is that 12 tone ET is what it is, the physics of the vibrating string is what it is and that a set up attempts to balance these things out. A guitar perfectly in tune is impossible a guitar in an acceptable tuning is entirely possible..

 

[toyL]

...
...A guitar perfectly in tune is impossible a guitar in an acceptable tuning is entirely possible..

Exactly correct.
In “equal-tempered” tuning, where octaves are divided into 12 equal steps, a G-sharp is equal to an A-flat. If your ears can hear the circle of fifths, however, you’ll notice that a G-sharp is actually a tiny bit sharper than an A-flat (Pythagorean tuning).
Two reasons you’ve noticed that your guitar isn’t “in tune” across all frets: 1) you have a good ear, and 2) there is a mathematical error that results from using the 12-tone theory in conjunction with the various physical fret-scales used on a guitar. Kind of hard for me to explain, but here are a few references:

http://www.deanmarkley.com/Info/Instruction/Instruction01InTune.shtml “The bad news is - guitars don't play perfectly in tune! They are only relatively in tune. They are in what is called a ‘tempered’ tuning. Even on a perfectly maintained instrument, if you tune it so that the G# in the first position E chord is sweetly in tune, the open G in your first position C chord will be flat. If you tune the C# in a first position A chord to be sweet, the open B will be flat. Guitars are tuned in a compromised tuning that makes that C# and G# a little sharp so that the open strings are only a little flat. Fortunately for most of us, our ears have become accustomed to these compromises so that it doesn't sound unpleasant. Still, you will often see classical guitarists re-tuning for different pieces that feature specific intervals.”
“A guitar is considered to be in proper intonation when notes and chords do not get more and more out of tune as you play up the neck. Proper intonation does not mean that it is perfectly in tune at every fret, just that it is equally out of tune at any given point (more about this later).”
“Proper intonation is achieved by making sure that the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret is equal to the distance from the twelfth fret to the bridge. This can be easily checked by picking each string while lightly touching it at the twelfth fret, creating a harmonic. Fretting the string at the same fret should result in a note of the same pitch. (The harmonic is always the same as the open string whether the intonation is right or not.) If the fretted note is sharp compared to the harmonic its bridge point needs to moved farther from the twelfth fret; if it is flat, it needs to be closer.”

and these, http://home.swipnet.se/nydana/tuning.html
http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation5.html
http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T4.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/et.html#c2