Getting nice, up front toms with minimal mics

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thebigcheese

thebigcheese

"Hi, I'm in Delaware."
I'm really liking using as few mics as possible on the drums, but I can't get my toms to pop out like I'd like them to. Right now, I'm recording in an untreated basement (with the exception of some couches in one corner and some mattress pads in two other corners) using a D6 for the kick and a Nady something or other (from the drum kit) on the snare, just outside the hole on the side. For overheads, I'm using matched X-Ts from Naiant, set up with Glyn Johns method. I know that omnis aren't ideal in a not-so-great room, but I'm getting a decent sound for the cymbals, snare, and kick. I really don't want to stick mics on all the toms, but I'm just not getting a nice tom sound now. I can't really move the drums, either, even though they are in a corner... I'm looking to get a sound like on the Rush album "Moving Pictures", or basically a modern rock sound, even though they usually mic toms (as I understand). Any suggestions?
 
thebigcheese said:
I'm really liking using as few mics as possible on the drums, but I can't get my toms to pop out like I'd like them to. Right now, I'm recording in an untreated basement (with the exception of some couches in one corner and some mattress pads in two other corners) using a D6 for the kick and a Nady something or other (from the drum kit) on the snare, just outside the hole on the side. For overheads, I'm using matched X-Ts from Naiant, set up with Glyn Johns method. I know that omnis aren't ideal in a not-so-great room, but I'm getting a decent sound for the cymbals, snare, and kick. I really don't want to stick mics on all the toms, but I'm just not getting a nice tom sound now. I can't really move the drums, either, even though they are in a corner... I'm looking to get a sound like on the Rush album "Moving Pictures", or basically a modern rock sound, even though they usually mic toms (as I understand). Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

while i've never used omnis for OHs (only various cardioid sdcs), i can tell you that treatment makes all the difference in the world, and if it mattered that much with cardioids, it's bound to make an even bigger difference with omnis.

before i treated, i was using pearl exports with a spaced pair of cad icm417s and every tom miked. the toms always sounded buried and blurry (8 mics total).

then i went to tama starclassics with mxl 603s in recorderman setup, with a d6 on kick, 57 on snare, and no toms miked (4 mics total). the toms sounded only marginally better.

it was the treatment that went up afterwards that really brought the toms into focus. flutter echo and standing waves, which are largely imperceptible problems (on tape anyway) until you hear the difference, became a thing of the past.

you can check out the final results here (this is totally raw, no eq or effects):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBEY-TKTOY
 
Those do sound pretty nice. Just out of curiosity, how do you have your d6 positioned for the kick? I've managed to EQ it to sound mostly like how I want, but something about the sound of the click isn't quite right to me...

I figured I'd have to look into treatment eventually, but I don't really know how to go about it when my drums are still a) in my mom's basement or b) at a house I will be out of in a year (if they even fit there). And it's so expensive... I had no idea it could make that much difference, but I guess it makes sense when you consider that you don't have to deal with interference from sound waves bouncing around.
 
thebigcheese said:
Those do sound pretty nice. Just out of curiosity, how do you have your d6 positioned for the kick? I've managed to EQ it to sound mostly like how I want, but something about the sound of the click isn't quite right to me...

I figured I'd have to look into treatment eventually, but I don't really know how to go about it when my drums are still a) in my mom's basement or b) at a house I will be out of in a year (if they even fit there). And it's so expensive... I had no idea it could make that much difference, but I guess it makes sense when you consider that you don't have to deal with interference from sound waves bouncing around.
Click to expand...

i have the d6 inside the kick, about 8" from the beater and off-center, but in my final mixes, i usually bump around 1.5k to bring out some more click.

i hear you on your treatment dilemma. you really need your own space to take that plunge. it wasn't until i bought a house that i got serious about putting together a dedicated studio space. i had a lot of apartments where the living room was all i had for recording.

but that aside, treatment really isn't that expensive--i did all mine with oc703 and muslin with minimal hardware. the 703 was the most expensive component, and i think i got it all done for around $300. see my other youtube vid for a look at all the panels (i only have 2 up).

this is what i used as my starting point, and i tweaked it to my needs and "cheapened" it accordingly (hats off to bubbagump):

http://audiominds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3320
 
I like Jello.


(Sorry, just trying to compete with the RUSH dude).


:D :D :D
 
Hmm... $300 isn't so bad. I wouldn't use omnis in this room except that the only cardiods I have for overheads have no low end to them (they're also from the Nady pack). I guess that would be fine b/c I wouldn't have to worry about the kick getting into those tracks as much, but I wouldn't get the same definition from the toms, either... I'll try to do some comparison tracks for myself in the coming days, but I can post them up, too, so you can see what I'm talking about. Actually, one that I have right now is here:



There isn't a whole lot of tom work, (it's mostly all in the one section), but you can see what I mean. Granted, I cut out most of the lows from the OHs to clear things up a bit, but still.
 
Ok I have not read squat in this thread .... I saw a link to an mp3 and the mention of RUSH!!!!!!! :) I like Jello Pudding Pops.

Now...I have have had a few beers..... that being said..... I will be right right back. I need a smoke. By the way.... April.mp3 ... very nice. Lovely guitar. Nice drums and I see what you mean about the toms sounding far off..... hmm...need to concentrate.....


Man...that is a cool tune....I might PM you to see if I can mess with your tracks. Word!
 
errr314 said:
Ok I have not read squat in this thread .... I saw a link to an mp3 and the mention of RUSH!!!!!!! :) I like Jello Pudding Pops.

Now...I have have had a few beers..... that being said..... I will be right right back. I need a smoke. By the way.... April.mp3 ... very nice. Lovely guitar. Nice drums and I see what you mean about the toms sounding far off..... hmm...need to concentrate.....


Man...that is a cool tune....I might PM you to see if I can mess with your tracks. Word!
Click to expand...
I don't know if you'd really want to mess with the current tracks. Aside from maybe the drums (the toms sort of work in this song, but my OCD might kick in and make me rerecord), the tracks are very rough and I plan on rerecording, especially since I did a bit of tempo changing. If you want, though, I can still send them :) Thanks for the comments, too. It's one of my bands first songs from a couple years ago, actually. We just never got around to making a decent recording until now.
 
drossfile said:
while i've never used omnis for OHs (only various cardioid sdcs), i can tell you that treatment makes all the difference in the world, and if it mattered that much with cardioids, it's bound to make an even bigger difference with omnis.

before i treated, i was using pearl exports with a spaced pair of cad icm417s and every tom miked. the toms always sounded buried and blurry (8 mics total).

then i went to tama starclassics with mxl 603s in recorderman setup, with a d6 on kick, 57 on snare, and no toms miked (4 mics total). the toms sounded only marginally better.

it was the treatment that went up afterwards that really brought the toms into focus. flutter echo and standing waves, which are largely imperceptible problems (on tape anyway) until you hear the difference, became a thing of the past.

you can check out the final results here (this is totally raw, no eq or effects):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBEY-TKTOY
Click to expand...

I'm really digging that YouTube Video. It sounds great. I also use the Glyn Johns set-up. But I have the most respect for your playing and sound.

I spent about half an hour on my computer with your Myspace page playing in the background last week. I love your music, man.
 
Ok...I am back...and, Oh yeah, did I mention that Rush rules? :)

I really dont think its a prob with your mics......but its a problem with your levels. What is your recording chain? I am a minimalist as well. Peluso CEMC6 overheads...Audix I5 on snare.. EV ND868 on kick. Thats it. I hear my toms just as good as everthing else. I use recorder man method/Glyn J...method. One sec and I will post a pic if that helps. Why? Cos' I am bored and drunk.

Your shizz reminds me of a combo of Big Head Todd and The Monsters, New Age'y Stuff and somehow Queensrÿche - Silent Lucidity at the end.....very cool.
 
Word! Here ya go....
 

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My chain right now is just al those mics going into a Focusrite Saffire Pro 10 i/o interface. Like I said, though, I have to roll off the OHs on the low end a bit or it just gets icky down there, especially when I add in bass. Maybe I'll try again without rolling off, maybe just cutting certain frequencies down there or something...

I do have one gobo that I got when my school was getting rid of it, it's a pretty big one, too. Maybe I can just place that somewhere when I'm recording?
 
The one thing you haven't mentioned is your toms themselves. Do they sound worth a shit? Why aren't they cutting through? Maybe it's your playing. I listened to your clip. It sounds like you're barely playing at all and the toms didn't sound very good. Try switching heads or tuning them differently. Try actually hitting them. ;)
 
I tuned them to sound like what I want. The heads aren't new, but they sound just fine to my ears (in the room). For that song, I'm using the kind of sticks that have a mallet on the other end, so that might also be effecting the sound, but I feel like I am hitting them pretty hard. When I first started using the Glyn Johns method, they sounded really bad, and I figured out that hitting them harder helped a lot, so I've been taking that into account when I play now.

Edit: Also, it's a Gretsch Renown Maple kit, so it's not that I have crappy drums.
 
Well, it's gotta be something you're doing. I play in a bad room, in a corner too, and my toms jump out like a motherfucker. They're damn near too loud. I use the "Recorderman" overhead method, which isn't that different from the Glyn Johns method, and I hit the toms moderately hard and have a good tune on them. My kit's a Mapex Pro-M with EC2 batters and G1 resos.

Maybe try some different/more open heads or keep experimenting with tuning/playing. If everything is done right, there's no reason for the toms not to pop through a simple mix like the one you posted.
 
RAMI said:
I'm really digging that YouTube Video. It sounds great. I also use the Glyn Johns set-up. But I have the most respect for your playing and sound.

I spent about half an hour on my computer with your Myspace page playing in the background last week. I love your music, man.
Click to expand...

wow, thanks man! i'm honored! :)

for the record, all the music on that page was recorded on various old setups, and i haven't completed anything since i revamped the studio. i have a lot of sketched ideas in the daw, but nothing ready to mix yet. it takes me forever to put together a song. the most recent disc took me 5 years to finish. :eek:
 
The heads are Evans Genera g2 on the batter and g1 on the resonant. You're right that I'm not a very hard player, but even so... I dunno, it might just be my EQ. I'm going to play with that a bit now.
 
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