Getting nice, up front toms with minimal mics

[drossfile]

The heads are Evans Genera g2 on the batter and g1 on the resonant. You're right that I'm not a very hard player, but even so... I dunno, it might just be my EQ. I'm going to play with that a bit now.

the g2/g1 combo is pretty much as "open" as it gets, so it's definitely not your head choice...

 

[thebigcheese]

the g2/g1 combo is pretty much as "open" as it gets, so it's definitely not your head choice...

When you say "open", what exactly do you mean? Does that just mean it resonates a lot? What would you suggest I use, then?

I played with the tuning a bit and it definitely sounds better, but they still aren't popping through, so I guess it might just be the heads. I've got moon gel on all of them, if that might be an issue (they don't sound very good without it, though).

 

[Greg_L]

When you say "open", what exactly do you mean? Does that just mean it resonates a lot? What would you suggest I use, then?

I played with the tuning a bit and it definitely sounds better, but they still aren't popping through, so I guess it might just be the heads. I've got moon gel on all of them, if that might be an issue (they don't sound very good without it, though).

You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. I personally don't think it's EQ. If you go EQ'ing the overheads, you're gonna affect other areas that you may not want affected. The G2/G1 combo is naturally pretty freaking open, and then you're choking them down with moongels. If you want deader sounding heads, get some coated heads and don't use any moongels at all. You may not currently like the "open" sound of the G2/G1's by themselves, but that open-ness helps cut through the mix if you're not close-micing the toms.

My 2 cents:
1) Get rid of the moongels and tune the toms to the open-est tone you can get.

2) Hit em harder

 

[thebigcheese]

I don't know what you mean by "open", though. The reason I put the moon gels on is just because they sound too flappy when I smack them with my sticks.

 

[Greg_L]

I don't know what you mean by "open", though. The reason I put the moon gels on is just because they sound too flappy when I smack them with my sticks.

Then you don't have them tuned right. I really can't see any other reason why you can't get a good recorded drum sound from the equipment you listed. A tom should never sound "flappy". Learn how to tune them properly.

An "open" tom has the type of heads that allows it to boom and ring with a lot of natural overtones when tuned to it's fundamental pitch. It sounds to me like your toms are tuned poorly, and you use the moongels as a crutch.

There's no reason whatsoever that you can't get a good sound with your Gretsch kit and G2/G1 heads. Your problem is operator error. It has to be.

 

[thebigcheese]

Then you don't have them tuned right. I really can't see any other reason why you can't get a good recorded drum sound from the equipment you listed. A tom should never sound "flappy". Learn how to tune them properly.

An "open" tom has the type of heads that allows it to boom and ring with a lot of natural overtones when tuned to it's fundamental pitch. It sounds to me like your toms are tuned poorly, and you use the moongels as a crutch.

There's no reason whatsoever that you can't get a good sound with your Gretsch kit and G2/G1 heads. Your problem is operator error. It has to be.

Heh. Alright, you win. I'll have to go reread the ol' tuning bible. I used that when I first got the kit, but I never really got the toms to do what I want. I'm afraid to ever touch the kick again because I like it so much (still needs a little dampening to keep out ballooniness and too much ringing). The snare sounds better now than it did before, but I think I might have to retune it anyway. I can't seem to get the right feel out of it. It always seems to absorb my hits rather than give me good bounce for rolls and such. My friend has a Pearl snare that's basically perfect, but it might just be tuned better. I always assumed that I just needed to tighten the batter head to make it roll better, but I don't think I can tighten it much more, so it has to be something else.

 

[Greg_L]

Lol. I aint trying to "win", I'm trying to help you.


What kind of snare is it? What heads are on it?

 

[thebigcheese]

The snare I'm using is the one that came with my kit. g1 coated on the top and "snare side 300 hazy" on the bottom (all Evans still). I have moongel on that, too, b/c it rings out of control otherwise. My heads are also probably more than 2 years old (they came with the kit), so it might be time to change them anyway. As long as I'm going to be taking them all off to retune anyway, I might as well replace them, so if you have any suggestions that would work well for my purposes, that would be much appreciated (though I'd rather not have to buy anything if I don't have to).

 

[Greg_L]

Is it a wood snare? Steel? Brass? If you don't want any ring, try an Evans Genera Dry. I recently put one on my Black Panther Premium brass via recommendation from a friend and that bitch cracks with no ring. I love it. Great hard rock snare head. Your 300 Hazy is a good reso head, but at 2 years old it's due to be changed.

I have an Evans EC reverse-dot snare batter on my maple snare with a Remo Ambassador hazy reso, and it sounds pretty sweet with a hint of overtones if you want a little more "texture" to your snare.

I'm currently trying a bunch of stuff on my snares, but so far, those 2 are working good for me.

 

[thebigcheese]

It's part of the Renown Maple kit, so it should just be maple. I'll take a look at those heads. All my other heads are just as old, so should I get the same heads again, or try something new? And do I really need to replace the resonating heads, or just the batter heads (for the toms)?

 

[PhilGood]

I just listened to the track and it sounds to me like everything, and I do mean everything is over dampened. I'm not a big fan of muffling on drums. It might sound good when you're sitting at the kit, but that's not what the mics hear. They don't work like human ears. I use absolutely nothing for muting and even though sometimes it sounds out of control when I'm behind the drums, the recording always comes out with "that" sound.

Listen to Greg about the getting rid (or at least reducing the amount) of moongels and maybe upping the tuning pitch. Dead is not good for recording drums.

Unless you're recording 70's pop.

 

[thebigcheese]

Is there somewhere I can go where a real person will actually show me how to tune my drums? I don't seem to get the good zones, just bad and slightly less bad zones. Nothing I try seems to work right, even though I am trying my best to follow the steps on the Drum Tuning Bible site exactly. Right now I tried tuning my highest tom, but it has this really nasty ring to it. Not sustain of the note, but like a nasty overtone ringing out. Is drum tuning supposed to make me hate the instrument, or am I just doing everything wrong?

 

[PhilGood]

A little trick I use is to finger tighten the lugs then do a few turns. Get the drum to the approximate pitch you want. Set the drum on the bed or carpet as to mute the bottom head. Put your finger in the exact center of the head you're tuning and tap at each lug with a stick. Listen for the overtone. Raise or lower all of them to sound the same, then do the same for the other head.

Get them to the same pitch and Viola!

 

[thebigcheese]

Hmm... I'll have to try that tomorrow when I won't be waking the neighbors Is it better to have the heads tighter? I think they might have been a little too loose before, which would be why they sounded so flappy. I suppose the toms can only go so low, which might not be exactly what I want, but oh well.

As far as treatment is concerned, I think my ceilings are 8'. If I make some 4' tall panels, is it better to stack them to fill the whole corner, or can I get away with just one in the middle?

 

[tmix]

I can't overemphasize how important it is what Philgood posted up a few about how mics hear things.

When recording, my kit sounds really raucous and ringy(except the kick is dampened)
It sounds almost comical.
But the mics somehow translate that ringy popping mess into a strong and vibrant hit.
Before, no matter how hard or how perfecta hit or a rimshot I could get it sounded small and wimpy.

In my experience coated heads will start sounding pretty papery and flappy if tuned to the low side. If that is your goal try the clear heads like the EC2 Evans. One ply heads are good for tighter tuning because you get more tone, but if they are slack they sound really buzzy, 2 plys will tune lower and sound thick, but you lose a little stick definition so you have to hit harder or use nylon tipped sticks.

 

[thebigcheese]

Holy sweet jesus. I've gone through two of my toms so far and it is making a huge world of difference. I haven't bothered to try recording yet, but they sound so much better. I don't know what I was thinking putting muffling on these things. This will probably inspire me to do nothing but bang my drums all day now. They don't tune quite as low as I had them before (obviously), but I don't even care now. Maybe one day I'll just buy a bigger floor tom. I like having lots of options.

I saw this band on a late night show once that had the most absolute minimal drum set up I have ever seen. I think he had hats, a snare, a floor tom, and maybe a crash. Not even a kick. I don't know how a drummer could stand to be so limited...

tmix: I use nylon-tipped sticks anyway because I always manage to wreck wood tips somehow. These are all 2-ply heads on the batter side, so that might explain a bit of the flappiness, but it mostly goes away when I tune them properly.

 

[tmix]

tmix: I use nylon-tipped sticks anyway because I always manage to wreck wood tips somehow. These are all 2-ply heads on the batter side, so that might explain a bit of the flappiness, but it mostly goes away when I tune them properly.

Cool to hear the tuning and removing the muffling is working.
I tend to always use 2 ply heads on toms myself, every once in a while I'll slap single plys on but I tend to like the way the 2 plys play better.
Just don't muffle them!

I like nylon tips only because they don't tend to fly off plying the ride as much as I do, Other wise I like the feel of wood tips better.

 

[thebigcheese]

Ok, so, I tried some recording just now. It definitely sounds better, though I can't quite distinguish between the two lower toms, even though there is an obvious difference when I am playing. I think this may also be partly because I don't seem to be good as good a stereo image as I thought I was. One tom is all the way to one side and the other two are way on the other side, and one of them is definitely louder... I think I might have to experiment with different techniques.

How low in pitch should a 14" tom be able to go? The problem I'm having now is that, although the toms sound nice, they are tuned considerably higher than they used to be, which isn't as useful for the style of music I play.

 

[Elton Bear]

I saw this band on a late night show once that had the most absolute minimal drum set up I have ever seen. I think he had hats, a snare, a floor tom, and maybe a crash. Not even a kick. I don't know how a drummer could stand to be so limited...

Check out the Noisettes; Kick, snare, hats, crash/ride, floor tom. The Subways drummer has a 4 piece but uses a tambourine in place of a hi-hat.

I've been using minimal set-ups recently, did an acoustic gig the other week with brushes, using an 18" kick, 12" snare, and 20" ride. It really forces you to be creative, and I find that when I get back to a thousand-tom metal kit with cymbals all around it I don't hit anything that doesn't help the song come through correctly.

As for tuning, I found it impossible, same as you, for ages and DTB didn't help at all, but I learnt from video lessons - Get Russ Miller's tuning DVD if you still have trouble because it goes through pretty much all the tuning/head choice options in detail and covers a few interesting mic ideas as well.

 

[errr314]

Right! This guy is a tuning freak. He has great vids. I learned a lot from him about tuning. He is my dad.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bob+gatzen+tuning

Just kidding he is not my dad. But his tuning technique is really in depth. Also.... if you cant get the kit sounding just like you want then send it to me. For free of course. Woohoo!!