getting back to tape after 20 years

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Freddy G

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Hi Folks!
This is my first post here so I'd like to introduce myself....I have a feeling I'll be staying and visiting a lot:)
I've been recording and mixing since I was a kid....almost 30 years. I started out with analogue gear (of course) and moved to the digital medium in the early 90s and have stayed there ever since. Just recently I was mixing a rock tune and just for fun I tried mixing to an Otari MX-55 1/4" machine that 's been sitting in the corner of the studio collecting dust. I cleaned the machine, and threaded a reel of new, never been used Ampex 456 tape on it (we've got about 20 reels that were bought in the 80s and never used).
Well, the sound on playback just knocked my socks off:eek:
But...... here's the problem:confused:
After about 2 minutes of recording the high end began to vanish and I lost 4 or 5 db of output on the left channel.
Can anyone help me with this conundrum? I would love to regularly mix to tape now that I've rediscovered it.:D
Any advice or recommendation would be greatly appreciated.
Freddy
 
Hello Freddy, welcome. Checking how clean the heads are again'd be my first port 'o call. I'd suspect that the old tape is in poor condition due soley to it's age and has shed itself all over the heads. If it has then I'd avoid that old tape and get a few new reels. New tape is likely available somewhere near you from RMGI. Their website www.rmgi.nl should give you the necessary links to your country's suppliers (or just google rmgi)

Take care.
 
Thanks jedblue,
Well I cleaned everything before I loaded the tape on and after only a few minutes play I cleaned again and noticed the discolouration on the cotton swab...not terrible mind you but there was some for sure.
Could this be the infamous shedding problem I've been hearing about?

So, I've found 2 manufacturers of tape...RMGI, as you suggested and also a company called ATR Magnetics which are both available to me through a Canadian dealer. Does anyone have experience with both of these and which would you recommend for the Otari and mixing rock & pop (if these things even make a difference in choosing a tape)?

Cheers:)
 
Emtec/RMGI 911 is standard and is equivalent to Ampex/Quantegy 456.

I like to mix to RMGI 468. The bias is similar to the 911 but it has more high-end.

If Beck joins this thread, he'll be a bit more specific, he understand the tech stuff much better than I do. I just know I've tried both, and without fiddling with the machine, I like the 468 best.

For the record, I mix to an Otari MX-50 NII, which I believe is pretty similar to your machine.

Welcome aboard,
-MD

PS Don't use anymore of that Ampex tape. Ampex from that era is subject to "sticky shed syndrome," which is a degeneration of the the tape that WILL foul up your machine and is a real mess to clean up. Do not by any used tape, and for the most part avoid buying "new old stock." There are some lists on this forum that detail which tapes are suspect and which are safe. You'll find these lists are "stickied" (like a post-it note, not the aforementioned shedding syndrome) at the top of our forum here.
 
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First of all welcome. Next, never, and I do mean never ever use RMG!!! I bought 1 reel to be used to set up my Tascam 38 1/2" reel. When I got my deck back my work order has a comment saying the tape was no good and of low quality. Bad problems with tape shed after just a few hundred feet. I called RMG and was asked to provide my sales receipt showing the comments made by the tech that performed the service. That was ok, then I was asked to take picks of the heads and guides. I went along with that even though I just got it back from a full service. Long story short, a 2nd reel was sent to me. This tape was a lot better but still had some shed. Then I found ATR I called them for a chat and ordered 1 reel for a test and brother I'll tell you this is the best tape I have ever used..... If you want more of the story you can send me a message. I hope this helps you some.
 
dodgeaspen said:
First of all welcome. Next, never, and I do mean never ever use RMG!!! I bought 1 reel to be used to set up my Tascam 38 1/2" reel.
Click to expand...

Where'd you get that first reel of RMG from Dodge?
 
RMGI is great!

I have been using RMGI 911 for almost a year. I have had no problems at all with it. It sounds better than 456 ever did. I tried ATR and wasnt impressed with the tape or the quality control. Also the ATR offers only high output tape which means you will have to completely realign your machine to it. Also thier tape is very thick and heavy, it is therefore more abrasive and hard on your machine.
VP:D
 
Hmmmm....OK well it looks like people like both the RMGI and ATR. Maybe I'll order some of each a judge for myself.
I'll report my thoughts when I get them.
cheers:)
 
Good idea to get one of each and use the one that works best for you.

I will say that there are A LOT more happy RMGI users here than unhappy FWIW...also keep in mind that the ATR tape and SM911 are not bias compatible so make sure you rebias the deck (probably should do it anyway if it hasn't been done in awhile). Opinions abound but your Otari electronics were likely developed around the +6 tape standard (i.e. 456, SM911, etc.). ATR tape is something around +11. That doesn't mean you have to cal the deck to that standard, but you may find that you have trouble biasing the deck to that tape depending on how strong the bias amps are in the deck. You'll know when you try to setup the bias.
 
jedblue, I bought the tape from pro tape.com. After reading the messages left after my first post I called Mark at ATR and asked him about the bias and tape thickness and he did say that ATR is similar in bias and I may or may not need to change the bias, also as far as the tape thickness that was not an issue. Bottom Line is try both and listen to the differences. BTW RMG is made in the Netherlands while ATR is made in the US. Good luck.
 
ProTape.com -- cool, I know there's a ProTape brick-and-mortar store here in Austin, TX. There may be more out there, not sure. But it's cool to be able to walk in and get your tape right away. I'm pretty sure it's the only store in Austin that sells new analog open-reel tape.
 
Muckelroy said:
ProTape.com -- cool, I know there's a ProTape brick-and-mortar store here in Austin, TX. There may be more out there, not sure. But it's cool to be able to walk in and get your tape right away. I'm pretty sure it's the only store in Austin that sells new analog open-reel tape.
Click to expand...

Damn, now only if there was one in Houston...
 
dodgeaspen said:
After reading the messages left after my first post I called Mark at ATR and asked him about the bias and tape thickness and he did say that ATR is similar in bias and I may or may not need to change the bias, also as far as the tape thickness that was not an issue.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure who this Mark guy is but looking strictly at the spec sheet for ATR, it is the thickest tape to date, even surpassing GP9 / SM900. Yeah, the ATR does need more bias but I'd be more concerned about the thick / heavy tape stock, due first to the oxide coating and back coating second.

Tape thickness is not an issue if you own one of ATR's supped up machines. Otherwise, running an ATR on something like a 38 will put needless strain on the capstan motor and transport. It will be more physically harder to pull than the standard around which those machines were designed. In addition, freq response will probably suffer due to a less than ideal tape wrap and so could the erase ratio.

I see those ultra high level tapes as money wasted, for the most part. I really don't understand the logic behind using very high output tapes, other than a marketing ploy. More important is tape stability. Give me a +3 or +6 tape any day of the week.
 
Reading my mind!

I was influenced by all the marketing and hoopla about ATR tape and "high horsepower" tape I wasted time and money with some of it and a high output MRL tape. I now have my fleet of Tascam machines all set up for 255 nwbr/m level and RMGI 911 tape, It all sounds great! High output tape is analogous to overpowered, gas guzzling, obnoxious American SUVs. P.S pun intended
VP:eek:
 
cjacek said:
I'm not sure who this Mark guy is but looking strictly at the spec sheet for ATR, it is the thickest tape to date, even surpassing GP9 / SM900. Yeah, the ATR does need more bias but I'd be more concerned about the thick / heavy tape stock, due first to the oxide coating and back coating second.

Tape thickness is not an issue if you own one of ATR's supped up machines. Otherwise, running an ATR on something like a 38 will put needless strain on the capstan motor and transport. It will be more physically harder to pull than the standard around which those machines were designed. In addition, freq response will probably suffer due to a less than ideal tape wrap and so could the erase ratio.

I see those ultra high level tapes as money wasted, for the most part. I really don't understand the logic behind using very high output tapes, other than a marketing ploy. More important is tape stability. Give me a +3 or +6 tape any day of the week.
Click to expand...

Well, I think Mark is one of the owners or tech guy. I might have misunderstood some of what he was saying because I was cooling chicken on the grill. From what he told me the ATR is a good match for my machine. I would hope the statement's would not be said just to sell tape. Bottom line for me is I was burned not once but twice with RMG and now use the ATR tape. So far I have not had any issues with bias and things. The sound is good on my machine. I hope your wrong about the extra stress on the deck! I guess time will tell.
 
cjacek said:
Tape thickness is not an issue if you own one of ATR's supped up machines. Otherwise, running an ATR on something like a 38 will put needless strain on the capstan motor and transport. It will be more physically harder to pull than the standard around which those machines were designed. In addition, freq response will probably suffer due to a less than ideal tape wrap and so could the erase ratio.
Click to expand...

Tape thickness is not an issue for a machine with a large diameter capstan, such as the 2" diameter capstan on all 3M machines, or for capstanless transports, such as the Stephens and, IIRC, ATRs. For a machine with a 1/4" capstan, OTOH, the thicker tape can cause the problems mentioned above, along with a significant deviation from spec'ed tape speed due to the increased effective diameter of the tape moving around the capstan.

The logic of higher output tape is straightforward: greater dynamic range. In an era where high end analog recorders need to be competitive with digital gear even in digital's perceived forte (dynamic range), the higher output tape is an understandable development. However, there is really no benefit and possibly great liability in using such tapes on machines that were designed for thinner, lower output tapes.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Freddy G said:
Hi Folks!
This is my first post here so I'd like to introduce myself....I have a feeling I'll be staying and visiting a lot:)
I've been recording and mixing since I was a kid....almost 30 years. I started out with analogue gear (of course) and moved to the digital medium in the early 90s and have stayed there ever since. Just recently I was mixing a rock tune and just for fun I tried mixing to an Otari MX-55 1/4" machine that 's been sitting in the corner of the studio collecting dust. I cleaned the machine, and threaded a reel of new, never been used Ampex 456 tape on it (we've got about 20 reels that were bought in the 80s and never used).
Well, the sound on playback just knocked my socks off:eek:
But...... here's the problem:confused:
After about 2 minutes of recording the high end began to vanish and I lost 4 or 5 db of output on the left channel.
Can anyone help me with this conundrum? I would love to regularly mix to tape now that I've rediscovered it.:D
Any advice or recommendation would be greatly appreciated.
Freddy
Click to expand...

Classic signs of sticky-shed... common with 456 made in the 80's and into early 90's. Unfortunately it strikes sealed unused tape as well as used and there is no permanent fix for the problem. Dump the tape, but unscrew the reels and save them (and the screws). You can buy tape without the reels for less... called "pancakes."

See the Sticky about sticky-shed at the top of the analog forum index.

:)
 
I bought a handful of tapes last year (LPR-35 and SM911). Haven't had any problem with them. However, I just looked at getting some more and HOLY ^#$^%(& has the price of tape shot up! WOW! You would think since the price of petroleum is in the proverbial crapper at the moment that tape would be cheaper. Guess not.:confused::eek: I think I paid about $35 for a reel of the LPR-35 with the metal flanges. It's sitting at about $55 now. Yikes!
 
Ya the price went up to fund the company VIP"s vacation fund!
 
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