FX Mixers?

[Lane]

I just bought a MXL V67 mic and am looking for an inexpensive preamp and maybe compressor.

Looked at some Behringer mixers today, little ones with FX - are the preamps in these things any good? the compressors? The units are cheap, but I don't want to go too cheap and regret it.

All I'm doing is recording my vocals and acoustic guitar on my PC.. .nothing fancy, but I want decent sound...

 

[grahamware]

Sounds like you're only going to need a single channel, so get a preamp instead of a mixer. With a mixer you're paying for several preamps, a couple of inputs, tons of pots...etc. With a preamp, you're just buying a preamp, so every cent you're paying goes to your sound. A standalone preamp will invariably deliver a better sound that a mixer, especially a mixer from the Evil Empire of Behringer.

I wouldn't trust a built-in Behringer compressor any further than I could throw it...

But, if expandability is a must, go with a mixer. Even a Behringer mixer may provide an *acceptable* quality of sound for now, but somewhere down the line that mixer's preamps will be holding you back.

 

[Lane]

Good info, grahamware... thanks...

Actually, I didn't tell the full story - I will use 2 mics and maybe my guitar pickup as well.... but I also do have a little fostex 4 track that I use as a mixer. So, a mixer/preamp combined, with compressor, is of interest 'cause its all in one - but then, if the quality is lousy, it would be a waste.

Is it the Behringers that you dont like, or mixer/pres in general? I saw another little one without fx, made by Mackie under some other brand name..... also about $150....

Or maybe its a standalone pre and a compressor I need?

 

[grahamware]

Well, this is tough. It really depends on your budget and how badly you need a compressor...

First, is your heart set on recording every track at once?
If not, you have better and cheaper options.

Second, whats the budget?

Third, whats your sound card?
If its a sound blaster or something, you should upgrade to a card with better sampling (24 bit perhaps). Luckily, for some change, you can get an all in one solution - a soundcard with built-in professional preamps.

Also, what kind of recording software do you have on your computer?

What I'm trying to say here is that recording on your computer can be a large investment if you need a decent sound.

You may be able to use that 4track of yours...but tell me what kind of inputs and outputs it has.

As for Behringer, their stuff can be okay, but many folks around here can't stand them, not only for their shoddy quality, but also for their 'just copy what our competitors are doing' design model. That doesn't bother me so much...but I digress. Generally, stay away from Eurorack preamps.

-Graham D.
http://www.hr-faq.org

 

[Lane]

OK... let me try to answer.

1) Not necessarily recording all at once, but I'd like that option too

2) My budget? Hard to say, Id rather spend a little more and get it right, but $400 - $500 max? But I'll need one more LD mic, I think.... the mixer I have may be adequate.

3) Yes, sound card is an Audigy Platinum wiht live drive. I like the front inputs, etc, but I have a feeling I need a step up. You say a card with preamps built in? Hmmm.... NOw.. I've also seen the Mbox and Omni Studio - dont fully understand how they work, but I guess that replaces the soundcard all together with PC mixers, recorder, etc? Is that a good option?

4) Current software is Ntracks (I have some others, too, but they all are too complicated for me to learn) But I'm open to ideas...

I want to keep this simple, if possible, but I also dont want to cheap out and end up replacing everything a year later....

Thanks for the help

 

[grahamware]

Darn...I was hoping you would say $600.00

Even with your 5 c bills, maybe skip the LD condenser, and find a used M-Audio Omni Studio (an Omni I/O w/Delta 66). It's a 24 bit soundcard, and has the 2 mic pres you need, plus a direct input for your guitar pickup.

The Omni Studio is cool because the computer BECOMES your mixer. That way, you have the flexibility of multitrack recording without having to record every track separately. Compression can be done virtually with software in this case...but I don't know how well that works.

However, this is expensive. Another, more flexible alternative: An Audiophile 2496, with stereo audio inputs (200 list). This will give you more flexibility for future purchases, but means you need to do analog mixing. If your 4track has a couple of inputs and a single output, you could use your 4track as a mixer...but I don't know what it looks like.

You could buy a cheap-o Behringer mixer and not use the preamps...sounds counter intuitive, but hear me out. Get the UB802 for 50, then get an M-Audio DMP3 (249), which is basically two preamps in one. We're up to 500 here! Perfect! Plug the M-Audio's two line outs into the UB802's line ins, and your guitar directly into another line in. The UB802 hooks up to your sound card's stereo line in. The UB802 does the mixing, but none of the amplifying, and you still have 24-bit recording into your computer.

A stand-alone compressor will cost nearly 200, so maybe you can wait on that for a while.

-Graham

EDIT: Checkin around...DMP3 is more like 200 than 250...score! GC had a blowout @ 129 or something, so there might be cheaper ones around too.

 

[Lane]

OK... this is helpfull....

First... the Omni Studio or Mbox may be a possibility... I see them on e-bay, might spring the extra $ for a new one IF that is really, surely the way to go... .by the time I buy a DMP3, compressor and new sound card.. im up to that much money anyway... But IS this approach as good? Better?

As to the mixer - if I"m going to use the Behringer only for mixing, I can do that with my fostex 4 channel..... 4 ins, one out, I think. So if I dont use the pres and compressor in the Behringer, theres no point. I see what you mean on the set up.... but I dont understand what you mean about still having 24 bit recording - is that the rate on the recording software and does my SB card still impede that? I'm over my head here...

Thanks a million!

 

[grahamware]

IMPORTANT: I forgot - get a direct box for your guitar signal. It takes your guitar pickup's high impedence signal, and makes it low impedence for your mixer. They aren't too much ($40 or less).

An Omni Studio give you multitrack capability, which means MUCH more flexibility in post, and this ability would surely improve recordings, assuming you have the right software. Sound Forge is excellent, but expensive as well. Sound Forge Studio ($99) may be appropriate. But, it means more money, now, and less flexibility down the road when it comes to bigger purchasing decisions.

Also, I think that the Omni Studio, because everything is combined into one, means you can't buy a hardware compressor later on unless you also buy a mic preamp...but I'm not sure. However, you will have access to software compressor capabilities now, though they won't sound as good as an RNC, for example.

Yeah, use the fostex if it has 4 line ins, and a stereo line out, as well as volume controls for each channel. That'll save $50. I'm not familiar with it, but it'll probably work out fine.

There is a big step up from 16 bit to 24 bit recording. Your audigy is almost certainly 16 bit, so you will get a sizeable improvement with 24 bit. It's worth it.

The important thing to do is talk to the guys in the computer/soundcard board for more details about sampling rates, software compatibility, etc.

Hope this helps...

-Graham

 

[Lane]

Yes, very helpful.... also on the fringes of my understanding ....

I didn't know about the direct box for the guitar - will look for one, thanks.

Yes, the Fostex is fine for what you're describing. 4 in, stereo out to my sound card.

OmniStudio - So, it does not include recording software? Meaning I would continue to use my Ntracks software, )which is multi tracking with effects, editing, etc)? Is Soundforge basically the same thing.. ? It sounds to me like the software compressor, like in ntracks, is good enough for me for now.... but I would like to get the most out of my vocals with my LD mic....

I dont honeslty know if the SB card is 16 or 24 bit... I'll find out. I guess I can sell my SB card if I go with the omni and offset some cost....

Do you know anything about the Mbox? I think its much the same as omni studio, about the same cost... but I think I recall that it comes with recording software also....

Thanks, again

 

[grahamware]

Ntracks would do just fine, I think, but ask someone in the Computer forum first. I'm not familiar with the Mbox.

On the M-Audio site, regarding the omni studio:

Software
• Powerful digital mixing, routing and monitoring capabilities with included software.
• Includes Maximum Audio Tools (MAT) bundle

I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like it comes with something.

You could sell the SB if you go with the omni or the audiophile. But if you use the computer for something else, don't do it, because you'll still want a conventional 1/8" ouput for speakers if you want to listen to music, play games etc.

The Audigy will probably not cut it for your recording needs.

 

[Lane]

Oh... good point! I do listen to music on it - I also play music live on-line with my mic and guitar input to the soundcard and going out over the internet.... so I'd probably better keep the SB in there for that..... two cards wont, hurt, I guess....

I wonder if there's a way to duplicate this thread on the computer/soundcard board somehow so I dont have to start all over..?

 

[Paj]

>

Lane:

The mic preamps on the Behringer stuff are quite nice (not boutique tube stuff but accurate, quiet SS) and musical but the effects processor only has level adjustments (i.e., you cannot adjust the individual parameters of an effect). What this means is that effects are preset. A lot of the presets are quite usable for live vocals with only level adjustments but, if you like to tweak the effect just so, don't purchase based on the effect alone. On the other side, the connectivity (sends/returns/inserts) on Behringer mixers is hard to beat for the money or otherwise, and connecting one, two, or more extra effects devices is easy.

Effects added to Behringer units are tailored in some way to the unit.
Electric guitar amps have variations of multi-effects with three adjustable parameters (e.g., flanger, flanger+reverb, flanger+delay with depth, speed and level adjustments) and amp and cabinet modeling presets. The acoustic amplifier has a series effects that split (chorus on the instrument channel at the same time reverb echo is on the vocal channel). The mixers have a series of effects that are global (exciter, compressor, expander, vinylizer, etc) and these effects are applied only to the master outputs. These 20 or so presets are controlled differently than the usual reverb, chorus, phasing, echo, etc. These master effects are set only by the master effects level; individual channel effects levels have no influence on these effects---only the effects master level.

Behringer stand-alone effects and compressors adjustable, flexible and highly usable.

Don't buy the mixer just for the effects on Behringer units. Check out Mackie if you require tweaking the effects. Parameters on Mackies are adjustable. Neither Behringer or Mackie offers MIDI control on their compact mixers. Both offer great performance, connectivity and flexibility. Behringer is the only one to offer direct outs (sort of "post-EQ inserts), in addition to channel inserts, four buses, four aux sends/returns, for under $300 US. I'm sure the competition will catch up because, in case you haven't noticed, a lot of the mixers are beginning to look like they come from the same factory . . .

Good luck,
Paj
8^)

 

[Lane]

Wow Paj, good info - thanks. I've heard mostly negatives about the small mixer option and was about to trash that idea in place of the omni studio or something like that.... maybe I should reevaluate - especially given that I'm just trying to do something simple but of reasonable sound quality here....

If I understand about the fx - you answered one question about them being preset. Maybe for what I"m doing thats OK, but I was wondering how you could adjust threshold, etc on a compressor.... answers that. Presets may be fine though, since I'm just doing vocals and acoustic guitar.

Now... you lost me a little - are you saying that all of the effects can only be applied to the master out, that is, I couldn't say, just compress my instrument input and not my vocal, or put reverb on one but not the other? Am I understanding?

As for connecting external effects... Afraid I dont understand how send/returns/inserts work.... but I"m gathering that I would have the option of connecting an external compressor with which I could add that effect to a single channel?

Well... if the pre's are as good as you say, and I get some mixer function thats OK and just basic effects... maybe thats all I need at this stage.. I can still mess with effects, etc. in Ntracks when I record....

 

[Lane]

Graham,
I fogot to ask.... you said I need a direct box for my guitar... Mine has a Fishman Prefix preamp/eq in it... does it still need the direct box?

 

[Paj]

Lane,

The compressor is only level adjustable; the manual doesn't go into details so I'd assume what would make sense: soft-knee autocompression.

Inserts are individual channel output/input pairs (usually on one TRS jack)---like a pre-EQ aux send/return for each, individual channel. They are almost always pre-EQ, pre-effects (i.e., processed by the mic preamp and pad---leveled but "dry").

Direct outs are individual channel outputs (only)---like a post-Eq aux send for each, individual channel. They are, by design and desire, post-EQ (i.e., processed by the mic preamp, pad, EQ and fader).

A pre aux send has the same effect as a mixing (beld and level) the insert signals.

A post aux send has the same effect as a mixing (beld and level) "direct out" signals.

You might want to go to the Behringer or Mackie homepages and simply download some manuals to get some insight about the features/uses available. The Mackie manuals are usually good for additional info on mixing.

Grahamware gave you a good tip. A small, good mixer can be a musician's "Swiss Army Knife." I can also speak for the UB802 mixer. It replaces the MX602A (which is still available) but the UB currently sells for about $20 US less! Go figure! The UB has essentially the same features as the MX but the mic preamps have less noise and added headroom (both of which were great specs to begin with). I recently bought two of these and installed them (by piano hinge, plate and velco) as a "swing-out" panel to the inside-side of two of my open-back guitar amps. Why? Here comes the Swiss-army-knife again: besides allowing me to run my guitar series or parallel with effects or a modeling pedal, it allows me to set up an acoustic side chain for my Variax or plug in additional acoustic instruments into my amp. I love SWR acoustic amps, but don't think that you can't get a great acoustic-guitar-amp sound from an electric guitar amp! You can by adding a mixer to the aux/line inputs on the back panel---and without that piezo-horn hiss, transportation of two amps, or paying an arm-and-a-leg for a Rivera. A mixer also does wonders for interfacing modeling pedals (POD, V_AMP, GNX) with guitar amps. Swiss Army Knife. You may not even need that direct box if you go through the mixer first. I have a Deering D6 (banjo) with a factory-installed Fishman---no EQ or level controls. No problem getting great amplification through the UB, at one third the cost of the Fishman preamp---and I'd probably end up plugging that preamp into some sort of mixer along the line anyway!.

The downside to the smaller Behringers: (1) No Lo-Z output, (2) wall-wart power supply, (3) No -10/+4 dB matching switch.
Solve (1), if necessary, for ~$20 US with a Behringer DI D120.
No solution for (2).
Solve (3) by simply using the -10dB "Tape Out" instead of the main outputs.

If you do get a DI box (another "army-knife" device), I would definitely recommend that it's a ACTIVE one. They all come in a variety of flavors and features and they don't have to be expensive. Check out Behringer 's website for some inexpensive and versatile DI solutions. They even have a tube pre-amp/limiter/DI for ~$40 US.

Something else that you might want to check out for your acoustic is an Aphex Acoustic Exciter. It's reviewed in the July issue of Guitar Player and I think the review might even be available on-line. It has DI with ground lift.

Anyway, more info and opinions. I hope this, along with the other posts, is helping you with your decision.

Download some manuals.

Good Luck,
Paj
8^)