Favorite Out of Key Chords

[powderfinger]

What are some of you guys' favorite out of key chords to help liven up progressions?

It seems my favorite of late is III7......majoring the minor third of the key and adding the 7th..........I actually haven't written a song without that sucker in awhile.

My other fav is majoring the ii.

Ideas please..........I need some.

 

[Roel]

This is interesting. From a theoretic point of view I mean. Just a question before I give you good hints.

What chords do you put AFTER that III7 and II? (I've got a good guess, if I'm right, I'll explain to you what you did and why it works, and how you can use it to find more possibilities....)

 

[BrettB]

If the chord after the III7 is

- a 5th lower than the III7, the III7 is a secondary dominant, NOT a modal interchange.

-a half tone lower than the III7, The III7 acts like a substitute dominant (it has the same tritonus like the real dominant of that chord), NOT modal interchange

- another chord after it from the basic key, and the III7 doesn't resolve, it is considered as modal interchange. You can consider III7 lend out of the whole tone scale, or from the molldur scale (but then you use your lower 6th enharmonic as a raised fifth.


That's the theoretic point of view.

 

[Roel]

DUDE! You gave it away!!!

Damn man!

I'm pretty sure he's using it as a secondary dominant, resolving to vi or VI.

Substituting ii for II is the same thing. It's the secondary dominant resolving to V... Or v...

As a secondairy dominant, III7 can also resolve to iv or IV. You can also use secondairy dominants in a V-vi relation.

BTW, if you'd resolve the III7 to a chord half a tone lower, you'd resolve it to euhm, II#? Which would be out of the key itself, or you would be modulating... Since he asked other chords, he isn't doing that.

 

[BrettB]

Oh sorry, I was a bit too enthousiastic 'bout this, I shoulda read your post better.

Using a dominanth 7th chord in pop without letting it resolve is kinda tricky, or maybe when you work in a blues context it is more easy. I'm pretty sure he uses it as secondary dominant too.

With majoring the two, there's indeed a big possibility it is the same thing: when he puts a V7 after it, it is also a secondary dominant. Otherwise, you can see it as a lend chord from the lydian scale. That can be idd possible, because it doesn't sound really of track.


When you talk about reloving to the iv or IV, it is called erhm... (bedrigelijke cadens in Dutch, help me out Roel). Anyway, it resolves to a tonica chord, but not the I or i. But in that case, it is likely you'll have a relative ii before it, like vii(b5) (or vii for resolving to IV) for example.

and the fact that the III7 would be a subsitute 7 isn't very likely, I just wanted to brag that I know that, I admit

 

[Roel]

When you talk about reloving to the iv or IV, it is called erhm... (bedriegelijke cadens in Dutch, help me out Roel

It's called a deceptive cadence. When you hear the dominant chord, the V or V7, you expect it to resolve... And normally you'd expect it to resolve to I. In this cadence, it resolves to vi, you experience this as a logical resolution, but it's not what you expected. The ear is fooled. And, it's not really a cadence either...

 

[powderfinger]

What chords do you put AFTER that III7 and II? (I've got a good guess, if I'm right, I'll explain to you what you did and why it works, and how you can use it to find more possibilities....)

I've used a few different ones after the III7. I've used the vi, I, and the IV in the past three I've written with this change. As for the II, I have followed it up with the V.

 

[powderfinger]

It's called a deceptive cadence. ...

Also, what are some more deceptive cadences? And what are some out of key chords that you use?

 

[Roel]

Most of it is already told. Brett gave it away.

So, if you use it in:
II V or III7 vi : here you are using it as a secondairy dominant. What this means is that you really just put the dominant chord leading to vi in there. So for III7 vi, if you were in C, you'd put E7 in front of Am. You can see of it as a very short modulation to a minor. You just put the V from a minor in front of the Am chord. This is NOT a modulation however, it's a secondairy dominant. You don't experience this as a cadence in Am either, so don't think of it as a modulation, it's just a secondairy dominant.

III7 IV : this is the same, here you use the secondairy dominant in a V-vi relation. So if you were in C, you'd put E7 in front of F. Thinking in A minor, these chords are the V and VI chords...

III7 I : This is not a classical progression. So here is that intermodal change that Brett was talking about.

Now, on those secondairy dominants: you can put a secondairy dominant in front of each chord in your key really. Some are more common than others, but it works. For example, I7-IV (I7 instead of Imaj7!!), VI7-ii, VI7-II7-V using the same principal twice in a row,....
The secondairy dominant is very strong when using the dominant of the dominant, so II7-V7...

Then you can do the same with diminished chords, so the same relation as Bdim resolving to c. These diminished chords are also dominant chords, but are normally build on the vii of a minor key.
This would give you for example: C F F#dim G7 G#dim A ... Note the chromatic bassline in this example... This trick allows you to put chords in between any 2 chords really. Fun to do...

 

[Roel]

Also, what are some more deceptive cadences? And what are some out of key chords that you use?

Well, I told you the trick to find some more 'out of key' chords. Secondairy dominants are not really considered out of key though, from a classical point of view... Maybe try get some harmony lessons, if you're playing with this kindof stuff. I learned huge amounts of this stuff there... (I took classical harmony lessons, still taking them really. Jazz harmony seems pretty logical when you have classical harmony to back you up. It's the same things they do. They got a few more tricks, different points of viewing things...)

There's not that many deceptive cadences... Just the V-vi really. Classically you can consider the chordprogression G F/A as a deceptive cadence too. (don't know how you'd write that with the V-vi thingy... We don't use that normally.)
That's the only deceptive cadences I can think of. But I think from a classical point of view... Maybe there's more I forgot... Dunno.

Another chord that sounds rather good is the Naepolitan sixth. Look it up on the net.... (I have no idea how I would start to explain that here...)

 

[powderfinger]

This has been increadibly helpful guys. Thanks. Are there any books that you might be able to suggest that goes into some of this subdominant stuff and other good theory?

 

[BrettB]

there is also something like a 'delayed cadens': instead of, after a II-V movement, just resolving immediately to a tonica chord, you first go to another, not resolving chord and the chord that follows is the actual tonica.

You also got stuff like 'related cadenses', that's where you got several related II-V cadenses following each other without actually resolving (moment's notice from Coltrane for example).

I've got 3 years of jazz harmony in the conservatory, one more year of those lessons to go. The main importance there is to know all the cadenses and their variations (quite lot when you start with subsitute dominant stuf, and vary the related II's), the difference between subdominant, dominant and tonica and especially all the modes!

We had to know all the modes and their related chord scales by hearth so you can point out at any time from which chord an 'out of key chord' is exchanged.

I followed classical harmony at the academy for a while, and the main difference that I experienced was that classical harmony has a lot of 'Don't do that' rules, while Jazz harmony goes more of the way 'if you do that, let's find a way to explain it'. At least, that's the way I experience it.

 

[Roel]

I just have 3 years of classical harmony at the academy on my cv. (Actually, I ended halfway the 5 year. ) My jazz harmony knowledge just comes from browsing jazz harmony books.

Alot of the stuff that jazz harmony has an explanation for, can be explained from a classical point of view too. The difference is that they gradually teach you, just allowing a bit more each time, so by the time you can do those fancy things, you're pretty advanced... But you got a point, the classical harmony is kinda don't do this, don't do that...

I'm gonna try to fit in jazz harmony in my program next year. I really want to have a bit of both...

Those cadences you have to study seem a bit strange to me. What you said about studying them by heart, it seems to me like they are just kindof basic progressions? I make up stuff like that each day?

I don't really know any good books. I've got some books, but they really aren't the once I would like to start woth. My first lessons were just notes... Brett might have some good ideas?

 

[BrettB]

I always had written courses made by one of our professors, so I cannot really give you some book tips really. I have a book called 'Harmony and Theory' for the Hall-Leonard publishing, but that isn't that great.

Roel, I meant we had to know all the modes (ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, melodic minor, harmonic minor, molldur) by hearth, but that's kinda obvious. When you harmonize all these modes you get the related chords (I posted them once here
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=60562&highlight=chord).
You can find them mathematically off course, but when you use them regulary you will soon recognize them quickly in an harmonic analasys.

 

[Roel]

Jup, I see what you mean. I never dug into modal harmony. I'll get to that soon enough I guess.

Just 10 days of working here left. Less then 20 days and I'm a 'fulltime' musician. Me like...

 

[jjtcorsair]

I like the flat III major chord as in Eb in the key of C.

I like substituting a flat IImaj7 chord instead of a V7 as in Dbmaj7 in the key of C.

Flat VIdom7 to V7 to I is also a nice cadence as in Ab7 to G7 to C, in the key of C.

Also I'm a big fan of pedal tones, either high or low, causing tension throughout an entire chord progression. Im working on a tune now that has about 12 chord changes that keeps a pedal G in the upper register throughout.

My thoughts,
Jon

 

[Roel]

interesting substitutions!

The Ab7 G7 C would be a tritone substitution on the secondairy dominant of G7, I guess.

I don't know what the flat IImaj7 instead of V7 would do. V7 to flat II7 is the tritone substitution. Don't know what majoring that chord would do. Gotta try it. Interesting.

The flat III major is related to C minor I guess. That's probably where that comes from. Haven't got enough jazz-theory to really explain the latter 2... I'm learning. That's good! Keep it coming.

And pedal tones are awesome...

 

[BrettB]

you're right about the Ab G7 C thing: the Ab is the tritone substitutuion from the secondarye dominant of G7.

Eb using in the context of C is just a modal interchange with the minor scale, where you use chords of the minor key (in this case Cmi) in the context of it's major scale (C here).

And damn, I got an explanation for the flat IImaj7 but I can't find it right now. I gotta search for it in my theory books: I think you can regard it as a revertion of Fmi, and explain as modal interchange, but I'm not sure about that one.

 

[Roel]

I just thought of an explanation of the flat majII7....

Maybe think of it as the Napolitan sixth in it's non inverted form (not the common second inversion), and with leaving out the V in the progression? Or consider it as a plagal cadence? (Never considered using the Napolitan sixth in a plagal cadence, but I guess that can be done?)

 

[BrettB]

I just thought of an explanation of the flat majII7....

Maybe think of it as the Napolitan sixth in it's non inverted form (not the common second inversion), and with leaving out the V in the progression?

yeps, that's the right explanation, now you tell it I remember they taught it me that way. Right on Roel, we explained it all. Man, if there was a theery forum, I would finally have something to say on this bbs