Drum set and a brick wall - reducing noise with a PARTIAL barrier/panel

spitzer

New member
Okay. How about 0.38 at 125 Hz and 0.24 at 250 Hz then. Does that still suck? Is that significantly different from 0.01 and 0.02 respectively? Is it different by at least an order of magnitude?
 

mixsit

Well-known member
.. I suppose reading books and the subject for over 40 years and having built 4 studios I just don't know what I'm doing, you know we are only trying to help but I feel we are having the piss taken now. :eatpopcorn:

Alan.

And with that I'll offer to the OP these two. They are extremely relevant and were hugely useful to me.
And don't expect them to be just a 'read and get it all in one pass.
It's more like dive in and chip away to what seems relevant to your questions, rinse, repeat, add new questions..

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Studio-Construction-Budget-Everest/dp/0070213828

https://www.amazon.com/Build-Budget...0121&sr=1-9&refinements=p_27:F.+Alton+Everest
 
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mjbphotos

What?!?
Okay. How about 0.38 at 125 Hz and 0.24 at 250 Hz then. Does that still suck? Is that significantly different from 0.01 and 0.02 respectively? Is it different by at least an order of magnitude?

Not sure where you are getting your numbers. A piece of plywood mounted on a frame is goin g to act like a resonator box unless it's filled with something. A free-standing piece of plywood will just vibrate, transmitting much of the sound. Here's a good page of numbers: http://www.acoustic.ua/st/web_absorption_data_eng.pdf
 

witzendoz

Senior Member
And with that I'll offer to the OP these two. They are extremely relevant and were hugely useful to me.
And don't expect them to be just a 'read and get it all in one pass.
It's more like dive in and chip away to what seems relevant to your questions, rinse, repeat, add new questions..

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Studio-Construction-Budget-Everest/dp/0070213828

https://www.amazon.com/Build-Budget...0121&sr=1-9&refinements=p_27:F.+Alton+Everest

The second one I have owned for years and still have it, maybe an earlier edition but all relevant. Used it often even before I built my first studio to help with the bedroom acoustics and later the rented house lounge room acoustics.

I even used the theories to build a local community radio studio which is one of the best sounding radio studios around, we have live performers in there from time to time using only 2 or 3 distant mics (SM58's) and no eq or effects available.

Alan
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Boy...what a car wreck of a thread! :D

Heck...for the two weeks spent asking a lot of questions and rejecting or misunderstanding most of the answers, while at the same time saying none of this was for any serious audio recording, and a willingness to accept failure on whatever homebrewed experiments were tried...

...the best thing would have been to just go ahead and do whatever seemed "right", even if it wasn't...and then experience the results first-hand instead of theorizing endlessly.

Well...have fun. :thumbs up:
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
#86 posts, all the advice and no closer to a solution :facepalm:

Alan.

What I find puzzling (and maybe it was explained somewhere in the 86 posts)...is 1.) how/why is sound penetrating a concrete wall...?...are there some transmission points that are not concrete...?....and 2.) why anyone would think that adding a thin layer of wood would really help that problem...???
I mean, if the sound is going through the concrete...it would take a REALLY thick second wood wall w/insulation layer to improve the problem. If anything, just adding layers of sheetrock type material to the concrete, to increase the concrete density would be the better way for soundproofing...and once the desired amount was reached, then add the appropriate treatment to all that.
Of course....that involves some serious work and material and cost, which apparently is not the desired path.

So I say, slap whatever seems "right"...and proceed with a "trial & error" approach. Those are always educational, and sometimes fun, even if they don't get you what you want. At least you find out what doesn't work. :)
 

mjbphotos

What?!?
What I find puzzling (and maybe it was explained somewhere in the 86 posts)...is 1.) how/why is sound penetrating a concrete wall...?...are there some transmission points that are not concrete...?....and 2.) why anyone would think that adding a thin layer of wood would really help that problem...???
I mean, if the sound is going through the concrete...it would take a REALLY thick second wood wall w/insulation layer to improve the problem. If anything, just adding layers of sheetrock type material to the concrete, to increase the concrete density would be the better way for soundproofing...and once the desired amount was reached, then add the appropriate treatment to all that.
Of course....that involves some serious work and material and cost, which apparently is not the desired path.

So I say, slap whatever seems "right"...and proceed with a "trial & error" approach. Those are always educational, and sometimes fun, even if they don't get you what you want. At least you find out what doesn't work. :)

OP said he wanted to cut down transmission of sound AND ALSO cut down on the reflections (particularly cymbals) from the concrete wall - AND didn't want to cover the whole wall, but never gave a reason why on that.
 

spitzer

New member
Not sure where you are getting your numbers. A piece of plywood mounted on a frame is goin g to act like a resonator box unless it's filled with something. A free-standing piece of plywood will just vibrate, transmitting much of the sound. Here's a good page of numbers: http://www.acoustic.ua/st/web_absorption_data_eng.pdf

That is a good page.

I got my numbers from this page: Coefficient Chart . With respect, this is the third or fourth time I have pasted this link here and certain people (not you, mjb) have consistently ignored it and told me concrete and wood surfaces are equal. No one mentioned resonance in connection with that.

At the moment I'm actively trying not to explain anything about what I'm going to construct, since people would just go "Aa-HAAAH! You altered your plan again!". Just concerning materials, both of those charts seem to agree that most wood or wood products even, in almost any configuration absorb frequencies completely differently than plaster.
 

spitzer

New member
OP said he wanted to cut down transmission of sound AND ALSO cut down on the reflections (particularly cymbals) from the concrete wall - AND didn't want to cover the whole wall, but never gave a reason why on that.

I did actually give a reason for that, but it's buried somewhere in all this mess.

That btw has the priorities reversed.
The central point was, always was: wood, not stone right next to the set on that particular wall. Because of the timbre of the reflection. Any other place, any other direction - no problem, there's more air and other surfaces, (that aren't... plaster, for example).

Any desired reduction in sound pressure level, I from the beginning expected to be very small.
 

spitzer

New member
Boy...what a car wreck of a thread! :D

Heck...for the two weeks spent asking a lot of questions and rejecting or misunderstanding most of the answers, while at the same time saying none of this was for any serious audio recording, and a willingness to accept failure on whatever homebrewed experiments were tried...

...the best thing would have been to just go ahead and do whatever seemed "right", even if it wasn't...and then experience the results first-hand instead of theorizing endlessly.

Well...have fun. :thumbs up:

What I find puzzling (and maybe it was explained somewhere in the 86 posts)...is 1.) how/why is sound penetrating a concrete wall...?...are there some transmission points that are not concrete...?....and 2.) why anyone would think that adding a thin layer of wood would really help that problem...???
I mean, if the sound is going through the concrete...it would take a REALLY thick second wood wall w/insulation layer to improve the problem. If anything, just adding layers of sheetrock type material to the concrete, to increase the concrete density would be the better way for soundproofing...and once the desired amount was reached, then add the appropriate treatment to all that.
Of course....that involves some serious work and material and cost, which apparently is not the desired path.

So I say, slap whatever seems "right"...and proceed with a "trial & error" approach. Those are always educational, and sometimes fun, even if they don't get you what you want. At least you find out what doesn't work. :)

Maybe you wouldn't find things so puzzling if you actually read the thread before coming in and insulting me.

No one DOES think adding a thin layer of wood on part of one wall would soundproof a room. You're spot on about "educational" and "fun", unfortunately this thread is really neither of those. Certainly not "fun".
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Maybe you wouldn't find things so puzzling if you actually read the thread before coming in and insulting me.

No one DOES think adding a thin layer of wood on part of one wall would soundproof a room. You're spot on about "educational" and "fun", unfortunately this thread is really neither of those. Certainly not "fun".

I did read the whole thread...and that's why I said what I said, and I wasn't "insulting" you, I was stating the reality of the whole thread.
One thing is clear is that everyone in the thread (people who certainly know enough about the basics of studio treatment) are all still unclear what it is you're really trying to achieve or the manner in which you're going about doing it.

It's like...every time someone gave you suggestions....you came back with your own perspective on how you want or should do it. So why even ask?
So I say again...just go ahead and do whatever it is you think you should...and learn hands-on what is right or wrong with it. I mean. Why keep asking questions when you aren't following anything anyone is suggesting? :)

Yes...studio treatment can be frustrating for a variety of reasons, but when you don't know anything about it, your best bet is to follow the suggestions of those who do, and stop trying to reinterpret and come up with your alternatives.
 

spitzer

New member
I did read the whole thread...and that's why I said what I said, and I wasn't "insulting" you, I was stating the reality of the whole thread.
One thing is clear is that everyone in the thread (people who certainly know enough about the basics of studio treatment) are all still unclear what it is you're really trying to achieve or the manner in which you're going about doing it.

Are you sure? I just re-read the first page and especially the first post, many times. What exactly is unclear? The only thing I can think of right off the bat is that I said I'd add the colour legend for the diagram there and I forgot to do that, but since you read the whole thread you must have seen it on whichever page it was when I made the drawing. Anyway, to me that's pretty clear and especially people who know the basics and much more would easily be able to deduce the meaning of the different colours.

The entire first PAGE is very friendly discussion, not heated at all, no arguments, nothing negative. It was some time after that when it went nuts (talking about the mechanics of freaking WALL PLUGS...!? and all that crazy stuff that had NOTHING to do with the original topic)

It's like...every time someone gave you suggestions....you came back with your own perspective on how you want or should do it. So why even ask?
So I say again...just go ahead and do whatever it is you think you should...and learn hands-on what is right or wrong with it. I mean. Why keep asking questions when you aren't following anything anyone is suggesting? :)

I ask questions because I'm interested. Interested in the "why" more than the "what". That's what has been lacking, looking at this from my perspective. I've tried to target even very specific things and rarely has anyone just explained in a few short sentences WHY this or that won't do something. People with several decades of experience building studios would absolutely be able to do that. I've worked as a teacher for many, many years. University. Explaining to others things you just know is sometimes difficult, but not at all impossible. It might take a minute, but if you actually know your stuff, you can do it.

And "read the [some sort of "bible" or "magnum opus"]" is not an answer. If you're asked a specific question and you claim to be an expert, give a specific answer instead of wasting peoples time.

Yes...studio treatment can be frustrating for a variety of reasons, but when you don't know anything about it, your best bet is to follow the suggestions of those who do, and stop trying to reinterpret and come up with your alternatives.

What, I don't know anything about it? How do you figure that?

Miroslav, the reason I read your first post as "insulting", is the part where you said I rejected everything, misunderstood everything, being completely incoherent about everything... that wasn't all just me. Neither could I alone correct it when it started going wrong. I have zero need to get confrontational with you btw. That last post, you see, shows something I like, good quality of character. Maybe it's the fact that you're able to stay calm and level-headed, and NOT interpret everything I said as "getting in your face". Maybe you're one to add to the list I'd have no problem discussing things with.
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Look...you're kinda doing the same thing with my posts as you did the whole thread...breaking things way down to small bits, and then analyzing and questioning or responding to all those bits...which IMO, only got/gets you deeper into a state of confusion. :)

Again...not just me, but from what I've read, all the people who were responding to you seem to still be a bit confused about what it is you're really looking to do and the manner in which you wish to do it.
I'm also not quite clear either. I mean, I get it from an overall view, but specifically, when the discussion breaks into details, there's still a lot of confusion.

So I again suggest that if you are on a tight budget, and looking for "alternatives" to some of the more specific/formal solutions that are often suggested and used...you might as well take the "best common sense view" of what you think you should do...and then give it shot.
I mean, you already said that failure was an option (or something like that)...so then try a few things out, make a few trips to the nearby hardware store...and see what/if anything is working to get you closer to what you want.
Otherwise, if you ask people who have some of the basic knowledge, you WILL get a lot of detailed suggestions that require specific/formal solutions, and then if you ask more questions about those things, you will start to again go deeper into the "math"...which I agree can be overwhelming and confusing.

Do the best you can with what you have...worst case, it will be a great learning experience.

TBH...I sometimes feel bad for total newbs when they ask questions about acoustic treatment, because there isn't a simple answer (each space requires individual treatment solutions)...and the only "simple" answer is to go and buy a bunch of ready-made broadband and bass traps, and follow the manufacturer's installation suggestions, and don't ask any more questions, just install them...and get back to the music! ;)
IF you want a lot of info...go to any manufacturer's website. I know GIK Acoustics, besides offering their products, also provides a lot of free general info that might be helpful to you, so you can read at your pace.

Acoustic Panels | Bass Traps | Sound Diffusers | GIK Acoustics
Acoustic Articles - Acoustic Panels, Bass Traps, Diffusors | GIK Acoustics
Educational Videos - Acoustic Panels | Bass Traps | Diffusors | GIK Acoustics

Oh...and I will leave you with one final thought. It doesn't matter if you're doing audio for fun or for pro results...the acoustics, how sound behaves, will apply equally in both scenarios. So if you can get some decent acoustics, it will help you have more fun with your recording or help you get more pro results. :cool:
I really wasn't trying to "insult" you in any way...just though that the thread was all over the place and more convoluted than it needed to be, and that your overly inquisitive approach was probably the cause. I mean, sometimes you're better off without information overload.
 

spitzer

New member
...

I really wasn't trying to "insult" you in any way...just though that the thread was all over the place and more convoluted than it needed to be, and that your overly inquisitive approach was probably the cause. I mean, sometimes you're better off without information overload.

Seriously...

I'm so sorry to anyone who thought this might have turned out to be an interesting experiment, or whatever.

I'm not in a state of confusion. I'm in a state of disappointment and disbelief.
 

mjbphotos

What?!?
Seriously...

I'm so sorry to anyone who thought this might have turned out to be an interesting experiment, or whatever.

I'm not in a state of confusion. I'm in a state of disappointment and disbelief.

SO just build whatever it is you decided on already!
 

Ekimtoor1

Member
Oh, I suppose the first time I mentioned "plaster" could be ambiguous. There's no plaster board on the wall currently, it's plaster (mortar) coated . Aka a concrete surface. Different things in that respect.

I understand the difference between acoustics and soundproofing, my project is a little bit of both. I have a gobo as well but it's elsewhere in the room.

I'm not looking to treat the entire space [*], only that one specific spot is problematic (acoustically from the inside and less, much less from the other side, from a soundproofing standpoint) and most importantly I'm not going to invest a lot of time and money into anything at this time.

I'll try to make a diagram. Depending on things, that could be after I've done my little experimental panel (kind of like a gobo actually) though.

Still interested in a) specific spatial directions in which a drum set mostly projects low frequencies and b) how to maximise LF absorbtion in any system incorporating an air gap.


[*] The other parts of the room are already treated in various ways. Generally, the room is pretty diffuse, and works well enough for what I need. Only the one harsh, flat wall is any kind of problem (and it even depends on who you ask if it IS such a big problem).

Thanks. Later.
Having just built a dedicated drum space (which I have named the Drum Bubble), I can offer this in regard to soundproofing (not acoustics): your room will only be as good as it’s weakest link. If you treat only one wall, you may be disappointed with the result. Sound has a way of finding every leak and flowing through it into the places you don’t want it to go. The door, in particular, is very hard to seal. My space, even though I very carefully sealed it with acoustic caulk on every layer, is still leaking, or resonating perhaps, way too much low end. There are several details I haven’t completed yet like sealing the sill plate and outlets and lights, I’m hoping those will help. Looks like I will be chasing those low frequencies for a while even though the room is completely decoupled from the house. Low end is the most difficult to seal out.

Mike
 
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Ekimtoor1

Member
Oh, I suppose the first time I mentioned "plaster" could be ambiguous. There's no plaster board on the wall currently, it's plaster (mortar) coated . Aka a concrete surface. Different things in that respect.

I understand the difference between acoustics and soundproofing, my project is a little bit of both. I have a gobo as well but it's elsewhere in the room.

I'm not looking to treat the entire space [*], only that one specific spot is problematic (acoustically from the inside and less, much less from the other side, from a soundproofing standpoint) and most importantly I'm not going to invest a lot of time and money into anything at this time.

I'll try to make a diagram. Depending on things, that could be after I've done my little experimental panel (kind of like a gobo actually) though.

Still interested in a) specific spatial directions in which a drum set mostly projects low frequencies and b) how to maximise LF absorbtion in any system incorporating an air gap.


[*] The other parts of the room are already treated in various ways. Generally, the room is pretty diffuse, and works well enough for what I need. Only the one harsh, flat wall is any kind of problem (and it even depends on who you ask if it IS such a big problem).

Thanks. Later.
Just as you can place a sub woofer almost anywhere in a room and it is still heard, the same with low end from a drum set or any low frequency sound source. Low frequencies are not very directional.
 

Ekimtoor1

Member
mixsit: Absolutely, the sound will go around it. However, it could still be "effective". Just like a gobo, or an acrylic screen or similar concepts. I completely agree that most of its effect would be in altering the response in the room. Just as is intended.

Sometimes (not referring to this thread) these sorts of discussions are superbly off the wall. Like imagine a thick concrete block wall, but there's a 1 mm diameter hole drilled through it. 100% guaranteed an "acoustics guru" will come and say that since the wall has a leak (Oh my GOD! A leak!), it's completely useless. Which is obviously not true.

I was cleaning up my place the other day and I noticed that one corner, floor side, has an exposed plumbing pipe. I thought wth, where's the sandbag thingy I put there 10 years ago as a kind of "trap"? That's a huge leak, and a channel for vibrations to go through. But I did my measurements before I noticed it. 60 dB peaks on the other side. (I couldn't find anything as heavy as the bag that used to be there but I did a quick, lighter fix. Might measure again to see what that did.)

BTW, I'm currently investigating which frequency range is actually the most problematic. Volume-wise, what might surprise some, the bass drum and low tom are not the loudest components of the set. There's actually a significant difference. Floor tom and kick only -> 106 dB peak. Set including cymbals -> 112 dB peak. As for the frequency response, there's something in mid range that I don't like. Makes especially the cymbals sound weird (comparing different cymbals, some that elsewhere might be too bright sound very well balanced on recording and "darker" cymbals sound like the high end is not even there). That also affects the snare crucially. Have to think of something.
Anyway, despite that volume difference, the lower frequencies are harder to block or absorb so that's the focus. I think I'll do a bit of spectrum analysis. The "fundamental note" of the kick that I hear most clearly is at about 200 Hz. But is it at it's loudest there? Who knows.
Low frequencies propagate through a given material better than high frequencies, so imo testing the db of a kick drum to a cymbal isn’t useful.
 
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