Distorted guitar mids

  • Thread starter Thread starter ecktronic
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zoiks said:
What better way is there for someone to learn than by hearing an expertly crafted sound? I'm sure there's loads here, me included, who'd like to hear what we should be aiming for.
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Well, I'm assuming you have a CD collection, right?

Pick something out of there ... that should be what you're shooting for. Not to knock my engineering skills, but I'm not working for major-label acts, and thus, my work probably isn't at the same level as what's in your CD collection. Although I'd like to think it occasionally comes scarily close.

Listen to your favorite CD to get an idea of what you should be shooting for ... and then listen to Eck's sample to hear what you should not be shooting for.

I guess what I'm most concerned with is that ... some of you seem to be very interested in getting good-sounding guitar tracks. But then you listen to your own or another guy's guitar tracks ... and it's like you can't even hear something that is very obviously thinning out or mucking up a sound. And then you make posts here wondering if there's a better microphone you should be using ? ? ?

I'll give you an analogy:

Suppose I was a guy who was concerned with the cleanliness and hygene of my teeth.

Now let's suppose I also have this daily ritual of eating an entire box of Oreo cookies.

Now, suppose I came to you asking which toothbrush I should use to get my teeth clean. I'm convinced that my current toothbrush isn't doing the job. Meanwhile, you point out that I might want to curtail my Oreo habbit ... because it's leaving a black, nasty film lining all over my mouth.

I then procede to say ... "What black stuff? I don't see anything? Where?"

At that point, I just don't know how much good it's going to do for you to talk about toothbrushes ... or to try and show you examples of what clean teeth look like. :D I mean ... I got Oreo cookies all over my teeth, and I'm completely oblivious to it.

What would you do for me in that situation?

.
 
engine joe said:
pour a glass of milk into your noise and hope you drown?
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Well, I do like milk ... but I'm not quite clear on what it will do to my noise (?) Or how my noise has anything to do with drowning.

I do like where you're going with this, though. Think of Eck's guitar sound as "drowning" in scratchy white noise created by overuse of the presence knob (artificial harmonics added to the upper mids).

(bugger)
 
zoiks said:
What better way is there for someone to learn than by hearing an expertly crafted sound? I'm sure there's loads here, me included, who'd like to hear what we should be aiming for.
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I stumbled across an old thread in the MP3 clinic a few days ago with some of Chessrock's recordings. Didn't hear any heavy metal stuff, but it all sounded very professional. I'd personally take his (sometimes harsh and brutally honest) advice before most on this board.
 
chessrock said:
Well, I'm assuming you have a CD collection, right?

Pick something out of there ... that should be what you're shooting for. Not to knock my engineering skills, but I'm not working for major-label acts, and thus, my work probably isn't at the same level as what's in your CD collection. Although I'd like to think it occasionally comes scarily close.

Listen to your favorite CD to get an idea of what you should be shooting for ... and then listen to Eck's sample to hear what you should not be shooting for.

I guess what I'm most concerned with is that ... some of you seem to be very interested in getting good-sounding guitar tracks. But then you listen to your
own or another guy's guitar tracks ... and it's like you can't even hear something that is very obviously thinning out or mucking up a sound. And then you make posts here wondering if there's a better microphone you should be using ? ? ?

I'll give you an analogy:

Suppose I was a guy who was concerned with the cleanliness and hygene of my teeth.

Now let's suppose I also have this daily ritual of eating an entire box of Oreo cookies.

Now, suppose I came to you asking which toothbrush I should use to get my teeth clean. I'm convinced that my current toothbrush isn't doing the job. Meanwhile, you point out that I might want to curtail my Oreo habbit ... because it's leaving a black, nasty film lining all over my mouth.

I then procede to say ... "What black stuff? I don't see anything? Where?"

At that point, I just don't know how much good it's going to do for you to talk about toothbrushes ... or to try and show you examples of what clean teeth look like. :D I mean ... I got Oreo cookies all over my teeth, and I'm completely oblivious to it.

What would you do for me in that situation?

.
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That certainly is a long answer that could have been covered by saying, "Dude, I don't have anything that even comes close to the type of guitar tone we're discussing here."


[edit]
Matter of fact, not one of your samples has anything close. The 2 that i did find on your heavy/loud page weren't a whole lot better than eck's example.. they were thin and buzzy. Hmmmm
 
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HangDawg said:
The 2 that i did find on your heavy/loud page weren't a whole lot better than eck's example.. they were thin and buzzy. Hmmmm
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Precisely. If memory serves, that was a Triple Rec with the Presence knob cranked against my better advice.

I know that tone anywhere. :D

Look, I've worked with better, and if it's that important to you to the point where it will somehow "prove" my credentials to where suddenly my opinion is worthy .... :D ... then I'll find something better and I'll post it for ya later tonight (I'm kinda' tied up at the moment).

What I'm getting at -- and again, what concerns me -- is that there are still some who need another person to tell them that the tone is thin and full of more fizz than a soda factory. What I'm saying is that a lot of people -- far too many -- need to learn how to listen for this stuff. It's sitting right there in front of you, and once you learn to listen for it ... hopefully it will become clear to you.

... to the point where you're sitting there with the amp ... someone plays this fizzy tone, and you can just immediately spot it and say ... "alright turn this knob down here ... switch the pickup and try turning this up, over here ..." and it just becomes second nature.

To have this stuff going on and to say "I think I'll try switching the mic" ... is just plain brain dead. Whether or not I'm qualified in your eyes to make such a call is beyond the point.

I'm right about this, and if you care at all ... you should shut yer yap and listen up, because no one else on this board has been telling it to you like it is. I'm sorry if I'm coming accross kind of abrasive on this issue ... but I've had enough of it. This topic is worn out, and no one understands what the real issue is, and this madness needs to stop. :D


.
 
chessrock said:
Precisely. If memory serves, that was a Triple Rec with the Presence knob cranked against my better advice.

I know that tone anywhere. :D

Look, I've worked with better, and if it's that important to you to the point where it will somehow "prove" my credentials to where suddenly my opinion is worthy .... :D ... then I'll find something better and I'll post it for ya later tonight (I'm kinda' tied up at the moment).

What I'm getting at -- and again, what concerns me -- is that there are still some who need another person to tell them that the tone is thin and full of more fizz than a soda factory. What I'm saying is that a lot of people -- far too many -- need to learn how to listen for this stuff. It's sitting right there in front of you, and once you learn to listen for it ... hopefully it will become clear to you.

... to the point where you're sitting there with the amp ... someone plays this fizzy tone, and you can just immediately spot it and say ... "alright turn this knob down here ... switch the pickup and try turning this up, over here ..." and it just becomes second nature.

To have this stuff going on and to say "I think I'll try switching the mic" ... is just plain brain dead. Whether or not I'm qualified in your eyes to make such a call is beyond the point.

I'm right about this, and if you care at all ... you should shut yer yap and listen up, because no one else on this board has been telling it to you like it is. I'm sorry if I'm coming accross kind of abrasive on this issue ... but I've had enough of it. This topic is worn out, and no one understands what the real issue is, and this madness needs to stop. :D


.
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I wholeheartedly agree and am amazed myself why people can't seem to hear the fuzz factory. Which also makes me wonder why you would track something that is obviously crap unless you make yer living doing it. Me, I would have told them before they even walked in the door how it was going to be. If they don't like it, fuckem. I have a day job.

I have to disagree with you hate of all presence knobs. Mine works. I bet a lot of others do as well. I use mine sparingly all the time. Your blanket statement about that aspect is crap and you know it. It's like any other blanket statement about recording that people throw about and expect to apply to all people in all situations.

You're still going to have to post something you tracked with this type of saturated guitar tone that doesn't sound like ass to convince me that you are not just regurgitating shit that everyone here should already know. Knowledge is not necessarily going to make it happen. DIG!:D

You don't have to prove anything to me. I'll just call you on it like you do to others.
 
ecktronic said:
50% distortion for distorted guitars is when you turn the distortion gain knob half way up.

Eck
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50% distortion to me is 50% distortion less than my normal gain setting, not 50% of full on "get in the bunker" gain!
since each amp varies so much!
Put the amp on your normal gain setting and back it down 25% for recording is my usual opinion!

It would help to know what amp your using first though. i.e. which marshall??
I find Bass up full, Mids 5/6, and cant remember highs!, also presence on one on the 2203.
Now to get the extra gain I have a boss SD-1 basically I have the marshall up getting as much gain as I can and then use the pedal to get the extra bit of growl (not pedal up full and getting the amp up till its right or you get nasty solid state OD)

Also tube amps don't have to be cranked to full a lot of the time about 7-9 is the sweet spot just record it a few times see which is best.

Hope this helps
-Josh



EDIT: didn't see a second page I now know which marshall!
my advice: remains the same but instead of the pedal replace it with built in solid state gain, Crank the tubes add with the solid state gain.
On the topic I don't know how your amp cotroles sound compared to mine so the settings may(and probably will be different)
One more thing: Why buy a marshall (renowned for their midrange bite) and scoop the mids? They will sound nice in the recordings! and provide the guitars real cut in the mix!
 
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fishkarma said:
50% distortion to me is 50% distortion less than my normal gain setting, not 50% of full on "get in the bunker" gain!
since each amp varies so much!
Put the amp on your normal gain setting and back it down 25% for recording is my usual opinion!

It would help to know what amp your using first though. i.e. which marshall??
I find Bass up full, Mids 5/6, and cant remember highs!, also presence on one on the 2203.
Now to get the extra gain I have a boss SD-1 basically I have the marshall up getting as much gain as I can and then use the pedal to get the extra bit of growl (not pedal up full and getting the amp up till its right or you get nasty solid state OD)

Also tube amps don't have to be cranked to full a lot of the time about 7-9 is the sweet spot just record it a few times see which is best.

Hope this helps
-Josh



EDIT: didn't see a second page I now know which marshall!
my advice: remains the same but instead of the pedal replace it with built in solid state gain, Crank the tubes add with the solid state gain.
On the topic I don't know how your amp cotroles sound compared to mine so the settings may(and probably will be different)
One more thing: Why buy a marshall (renowned for their midrange bite) and scoop the mids? They will sound nice in the recordings! and provide the guitars real cut in the mix!
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Cheers man.
My JCM2000 DSL50 says that its fully tube powered, so I'm pretty sure theres no solid state gain in there.

My amp nd cab are feked. I didnt use any mids or lows pretty much and the tone was still a bit muddy. My high was almost full and it didn't sound that harsh, a tda yeah, but I was trying to get a less muddy sound, and the low and mids were pretty much off!! strange settings for a Marshall eh?
And I have a pretty bitey guitar, a PRS McCarty Soapbar, the pickup was the bridge one with tone set to ten, and the guitar is only a year or so old, its not the guitar.

Eck
 
My settings? there pretty common
Roling off the bass won't help keep it up
Mids as i said they give the cut, they mightn't sound great with them up in the room but it will in the mix
As for the amp as far as I knew it uses tube up to a level but they can only get so much drive outta them a diode probably kicks in to clip some peaks after a point you just don't know when!
 
HangDawg said:
I wholeheartedly agree and am amazed myself why people can't seem to hear the fuzz factory. Which also makes me wonder why you would track something that is obviously crap unless you make yer living doing it.
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For a while I was. Somewhere right about the time that I started telling people "how it was going to be", as you say ... was also right about the time that I started losing a lot of clients, and suddely I wasn't making much of a living at it any longer. :D

Funny how that works.

Oh well.

I have to disagree with you hate of all presence knobs. Mine works. I bet a lot of others do as well. I use mine sparingly all the time. Your blanket statement about that aspect is crap and you know it.
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Yea, you're right. But I am very calculatedly playing some very safe averages here.

As a realistic example ... I know that, statistically speaking, the presence knob (or BBE Sonic Muckilator or any other device who's aim is to generate high-end harmonics) will generally be responsible for far more mis-uses than the one or two cases of responsible use will ever justify.

Similarly, one could say that there probably are some cases where heroin use has been beneficial to some individuals. Perhaps there are people in this world who it just doesn't affect as severely as others, and they're able to carry on very productive lives while keeping their recreation use of it limited to controlled, mind-expansive and creative endeavors.

But I'm still not going to fault someone for saying "It's never okay to use it," because statistically speaking, they'll be in the right more times than not. And certainly far more bad has come about through heroin's mis-use ... than the one or two positive experiences could ever truly justify. :D

You're still going to have to post something you tracked with this type of saturated guitar tone that doesn't sound like ass to convince me that you are not just regurgitating shit ...
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Hey, last time I checked, I didn't see the words "Southside Glen" anywhere in my handle. I told you I'd get to it, and I will. :D

But I just want to make it perfectly clear that whether or not my stuff is THE shit ... or whether it IS shit ... doesn't change the reality and value of what I'm trying to preach to some people here.

.
 
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chessrock said:
Well, I do like milk ... but I'm not quite clear on what it will do to my noise (?) Or how my noise has anything to do with drowning.

I do like where you're going with this, though. Think of Eck's guitar sound as "drowning" in scratchy white noise created by overuse of the presence knob (artificial harmonics added to the upper mids).

(bugger)
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nose. nose! but i like where you went with it.

:D

.< see that bugger there?
 
chessrock said:
For a while I was. Somewhere right about the time that I started telling people "how it was going to be", as you say ... was also right about the time that I started losing a lot of clients, and suddely I wasn't making much of a living at it any longer. :D

Funny how that works.

Oh well.



Yea, you're right. But I am very calculatedly playing some very safe averages here.

As a realistic example ... I know that, statistically speaking, the presence knob (or BBE Sonic Muckilator or any other device who's aim is to generate high-end harmonics) will generally be responsible for far more mis-uses than the one or two cases of responsible use will ever justify.

Similarly, one could say that there probably are some cases where heroin use has been beneficial to some individuals. Perhaps there are people in this world who it just doesn't affect as severely as others, and they're able to carry on very productive lives while keeping their recreation use of it limited to controlled, mind-expansive and creative endeavors.

But I'm still not going to fault someone for saying "It's never okay to use it," because statistically speaking, they'll be in the right more times than not. And certainly far more bad has come about through heroin's mis-use ... than the one or two positive experiences could ever truly justify. :D



Hey, last time I checked, I didn't see the words "Southside Glen" anywhere in my handle. I told you I'd get to it, and I will. :D

But I just want to make it perfectly clear that whether or not my stuff is THE shit ... or whether it IS shit ... doesn't change the reality and value of what I'm trying to preach to some people here.

.
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Yeah, you are right. I just get pissed when people diss the boogie cause I've spent $$$ getting mine to sound good. It's a whole new animal now.
 
chessrock, I did listen to his tracks and of course there are problems with it that's the whole point of this thread no?

Yes i don't know this particular amp but i have a hard believing that his main problem is the presence knob (not saying that it isn't his problem either ;) ).. I use mine on my twin to get the sound I like.. You can't just crank it up and expect it to sound nice but it's there for a reason, and doesn't automatically give you a crap sound unless it's misused.
the same can be said about the gain, or the highs or even the volume knobs.. most musicians i see in my studio just randomly turn switches.. some of them are so set in their ways that there's no convincing them that their sound is shit making me have to work with what they like.

I'm right about this, and if you care at all ... you should shut yer yap and listen up, because no one else on this board has been telling it to you like it is. I'm sorry if I'm coming accross kind of abrasive on this issue ... but I've had enough of it. This topic is worn out, and no one understands what the real issue is, and this madness needs to stop.
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Alot of people here (myself included) are new to this site and still learning the ropes. It's great that you have some good advice and i think it's good that you don't sugar coat it but unfortunately i don't think these types of threads or "madness" will stop.. there'll always be someone new to ask it. and rightfully so.. most are not born with this knowledge...so you and people like you (who obviously care enough to help) will have to continue to hit people over the head with this kind of knowledge. although I was almost insulted by your comments towards me at first i get it. :)

btw you did get some great tones in that song.. sounds good...
 
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