Crazy Potential Bass Project

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Zarathustra

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I'm thinking about purchasing a cheapo Guitarron and sticking a medium or short scale bass neck on it and just stringing it as a four string bass... what kind of insane walls am I hurtling myself at?

I love my Fender acoustic bass, but it just doesn't have the volume, even if it projects better than, say, those Ibanez acoustic basses.

The only thing that's in this size range is the Dean Playmate and I have no idea how to do truss-rod adjustments (Plus I love crazy-ass projects).

What would I be looking at if I wanted to fix up something this?
http://elderly.com/vintage/items/200U-1167.htm
 
Don't make the mistake of thinking that a bigger body or deeper sides will give you more volume/amplitude. It won't. That isn't how it works.

Can you describe a bit more about you objectives.
 
Well, the concept is to create a louder acoustic bass guitar than the ones I've usually seen on a low budget and without alot of woodworking equipment or experience (probably something I could write down and save for later).

I hate doing things like adjusting piezoelectric pickups and lugging around amplifiers, and I just think it'd be cool to own a mean, loud acoustic bass (sound can be mildly shitty).

So basically the goal is to get an inexpensive, fretted acoustic bass that can hold it's own as well as possible. If I can find those frets from the electric guitar I could just fret a Guitarron and bring the action way down.

Does a higher action give more volume to the instrument? Guitarrons can be heard over mariachi bands, and they tend to have super-high action.
 
Without going into the whys and wherefores that isn't going to do what you want. I can describe why if you want but the way acoustic instruments work and the way we hear bass frequencies isn't going to give you what you want. You have to move a lot of air at those frequencies to get a significant gain increase and a vibrating string and a soundboard can't do it.

What sort of music are you playing? Where? What sort of amplitude are you after?

The project you've set yourself requires more wood working skills than you'd think and you wouldn't get significantly higher amplitude than an acoustic bass.

There are other easier solutions if you want a small rig with volume and punch. Trust me if it could be done acoustically I'd be a very rich man.;)
 
Zarathustra said:
Does a higher action give more volume to the instrument? Guitarrons can be heard over mariachi bands, and they tend to have super-high action.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. A higher action can give you more attack and faster decay but just a little. More importantly a higher action will mean you can use heavier strings and/or hit them harder. The net result is you can get more energy into the string and a bit more amplitude as a result. You are still stuck with a relatively inefficient method of converting the string energy into sound waves.
 
You might consider a resonator bass (or conversion). That may give you the volume you want in an acoustic instrument.
 
what instruments are you competing with acoustically?

i wanted a loud acoustic bass and got the Dean EAB Playmate bass and I'm very happy with it. It sounds "acousticky" with Martin SP bronze strings or you can put flatwounds on it for a more "uprighty" sound.

it can do well against an acoustic guitar, but maybe not a mariachi band :D

my cost was $129 shipped (plus the cost of strings/case).
 
Thus spake Zarathustra:
I'm thinking about purchasing a cheapo Guitarron and sticking a medium or short scale bass neck on it and just stringing it as a four string bass... what kind of insane walls am I hurtling myself at?
Click to expand...
Aside from what muttley has said (and I won't comment) it occurrs to me that you'd be very lucky if the scale matched. The distance from the nut to the bridge needs to be more or less precisely twice the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret, or else the frets will all be in the wrong place and you'll be playing some really wacky scales.
 
One thing to consider is the volume what you are hearing while you play vs. what someone in front of you hear is very different.

If you can, you might try to have someone else play the bass with your group so you can hear for yourself what the bass/guitar mix actually sounds like. Another thought is perhaps having everyone stand different in relation to each other - so like, the guitar isn't so loud in your ear and drowns out your bass.

Bass is funky anyway. A lot of people don't seem to feel/hear/perceive it when they are standing in front of their amp (unless it's real loud) - it drives me nuts when I do sound at church cause the bass player will be way to loud on stage and I won't be able to mix him in the mains properly. So then you get into phase issues, etc.
 
ggunn said:
Thus spake Zarathustra:

Aside from what muttley has said (and I won't comment) it occurrs to me that you'd be very lucky if the scale matched. The distance from the nut to the bridge needs to be more or less precisely twice the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret, or else the frets will all be in the wrong place and you'll be playing some really wacky scales.
Click to expand...

Think about it.;) Could be interesting.
 
How hard is it to make resonator plates?

I was pretty sure the whole guitarron thing would be a bust, but will that kind of body size, when built right, going to add alot of volume? It seems ridiculous for me if the body-size isn't adding any amount of sound.

I was also aware of the neck length issues, but eh.

I wonder, if you stuck a Resonator plate on an Earthwood bass...
 
Zarathustra said:
How hard is it to make resonator plates?

I was pretty sure the whole guitarron thing would be a bust, but will that kind of body size, when built right, going to add alot of volume? It seems ridiculous for me if the body-size isn't adding any amount of sound.

I was also aware of the neck length issues, but eh.

I wonder, if you stuck a Resonator plate on an Earthwood bass...
Click to expand...

Why would having a bigger body give you more amplitude? The whole issue is fairly complex but the underlying principles are simple. You get out what you put in. With a stringed instrument you are able to store energy in the string which is released via the bridge and soundboard as sound waves. Sure there is lots of other stuff going on and thats where it gets complicated, but in a nutshell thats what you have. Simply making the soundboard and enclosure bigger isn't going to put more energy into the string.

The question is will it make the transfer of string energy into sound waves more efficient. The answer is no. There is a balance to be had between size of the instrument and it's efficiency which is also tied up with tone qualities, attack, delay etc. In short you change one thing you effect everything else.

Thats why I said to get more volume you need more energy in the string and a more efficient method of turning it into sound waves. The best way to achieve it is to be able to store more energy in the string. Heavier strings will do that along with longer string length and to a small degree higher action.

Seriously I've built parlour sized guitars that can hold their own with the boomiest dreadnought.

As the ladies are always saying "size isn't important" only in this case it's true.:)
 
i will repeat: order the Dean Playmate EAB non-cutaway bass (their cheapest). Check it out. If you don't like, send it back and THEN contemplate other options, maybe just buying an upright bass. I should say, though, I've rented an upright bass before, granted it wasn't a high-end instrument, but they're not that loud either, even though the body is what 3 or 4 times larger. Even the smallest/quietest bands amplify or mic their upright basses, I think.

Now, that doesn't mean that they need amplification in all situations, only with a larger-size audience or with drums/percussion. I played contrabass balalaika (similar body size and tone to upright bass) in a trio with button accordion and balalaika. We amplified when playing to an audience, but if we played a retirement home or rehearsed, everything did fine acoustically. The same is likely true for guitarrons. I will say the same about ABG.

And btw, while not ignoring what Muttley said, the Playmate possibly has the largest body size of all acoustic basses (or most), even the Tacoma Thunderchief.

I did put Medium-gauge strings on mine and will also make a bone saddle for it with slightly higher action.
 
"The distance from the nut to the bridge needs to be more or less precisely twice the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret..."
I love precision - must be a fender bass - sorry bad pun.
 
So if a bigger body isn't for volume

Then the principle reason for increasing bass size is tonal?

The reproduction of lower frequencies requires a bigger body size, but it's not going increase volume much?

In that case, is the problem with a smaller-bodied bass projection? My Fender bass can compete with maybe a classical guitar, but it can't really be loud across a small room, but it's still better than the Ibanez basses I've tried.

In fact, I have trouble hearing the notes off those Ibanez acoustic basses a few feet away...

Perhaps the secret to this isn't a gigantic body, but a body design that can project notes more efficiently?
 
Zarathustra said:
Then the principle reason for increasing bass size is tonal?
Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. First off, who said that the body size needs to be increased? You'll find many bigger bodied basses but stick that neck on an average sized guitar body and the neck is going to hit the floor. There is an ergonomic thing going on as well, but that isn't the whole story.

The reproduction of lower frequencies requires a bigger body size, but it's not going increase volume much?
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Who said so? That may or may not be true of speaker cabinets, I don't know enough about them to say but it's not true of acoustic stringed instruments. As I said you have a balancing act going on. There is a finite amount of energy in the string and an inefficient method of converting it to sound waves. How that is done to best effect is down to a balance of body size and the efficiency of the top and materials ability to transfer that energy.

Too big, heavy and stiff and it takes a lot of energy to get going. Too small and it can't shift enough air to be heard.

In that case, is the problem with a smaller-bodied bass projection? My Fender bass can compete with maybe a classical guitar, but it can't really be loud across a small room, but it's still better than the Ibanez basses I've tried.
Click to expand...
Partly yes, from my experience the smaller the body the more directional the sound seems to be. I have no knowledge of acoustic research to back that up though, it is just an observation. A bigger body seems to project sound better than a smaller one. Too big and the whole thing gets muddy and almost "floppy". Some of the bigger double basses I've heard have had a horrible sound and projection.

In fact, I have trouble hearing the notes off those Ibanez acoustic basses a few feet away...

Perhaps the secret to this isn't a gigantic body, but a body design that can project notes more efficiently?
Click to expand...
If you can crack that one you are on a winner. As I've said all along you are trying to take what is quite a small amount of energy in a vibrating string and get it to be heard above everything else. Think about it. All in all that acoustic bass does quite a good job of being heard at all.

In the end you would be better off trying to find a light, small bodied acoustic bass or stick bass and a decent onboard through a small acoustic amp. You don't need a lot of amplification but just enough to cut through. That way if you have bigger gigs you can plug in to the house system or PA. You simply won't find a bass that can do what you want acoustically. You still haven't really said what instruments you are competing with and what gigs your doing?

I gigged as part of a duo for years with my best mate who is a bass player. He'd play acoustic for some gigs but as soon as we had more than a dozen people there he'd mic up or plug in. I on the other hand could hit the strings harder and shout and still be heard. It took about twenty people for me to plug in.;)
 
muttley600 said:
...You simply won't find a bass that can do what you want acoustically...
Click to expand...

yeah, we still don't know what that is - what do you want it to do? what room size?

btw, shouldn't scale length also be a player? like a 34" acoustic bass vs. a shorter scale acoustic. I would think that it's better to have full-scale.

there's a local guitar store, which has an acoustic bass built off of a 6-string body AND neck, so it's VERY short-scale. that thing feels floppy and is also VERY quiet.

My Dean (and pardon me for playing this broken record) is 34" scale, very clear sounding, punchy and has loud low end as can reasonably be expected.
 
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