I need some ACOUSTIC guitar experts on the subject of steel VS nylon...

[FoulPhil]

Maybe I'm in the wrong form for this, but maybe some of you guys will know what up with this shit, or can recommend a forum that would know what's up with it.

I scored a nylon string "classical" guitar on Craigslist for $30 dollars. It's a Jasmine JS441 by Takamine and goes for around $160 new. Nothing fancy just another guitar for me to play around with. I spent a few weeks working on my finger-style, but ended up deciding that I needed to stay focused on my picking technique. I didn't see the value in mastering a whole new style when I need to continue mastering the different picking techniques. I mean do we ever know enough scales and is our alternate, tremolo, sweep, cross and string skipping picking (to name a few) ever really perfected or even fast enough? Think about that, why don't you?! So, to make a short story long I went back to using my big stubby 3.0 guitar pick on nylon and I really like the tone. It kind of works for all the music styles and genres I like to noodle around with.

Another issue is I think some of the things I play might sound a little cheesy on Nylon strings. Not sure if cheesy is the right word, but it seems like steel string sounds more serious for a lot of my music. That said everything I play on my Nylon guitar is just so easy. Even on my Martin HD28 it kind of hurt my hand to hold down some of the chords I play and with the Nylon strings I don't have to strain to play certain things. I kind of like the sound of steel strings better, but every now and then the nylon really shines in the bass notes with an aggressive fat pick like the big stubby.

Another issue is my singing voice is pretty loud and sometimes I feel like I was even over powering the HD28. One of the reasons I bought it was because people say it's a "cannon" and I had even read about a few people saying it's too loud for their voice. I need loudness/projection and was really surprise that my $30 dollar CL cheapo nylon keeps up with my voice ok with the pick, not so great with finger picking. I figure something that's all solid wood and is generally a better instrument would be so much sweeter than what I'm using now.

So, what are my options? Is there a way to make a steel string play as easy as a nylon string? I've always used medium strings for my steel string acoustics because it tends to be much louder and has more depth. Is there nylon/classical type strings that don't use nylon for the treble strings? lol. Is there some middle ground I can explore to get the ease of playing like nylon, but without the dinky sounding treble strings of nylon and without the loss of volume/projection?

I'm going to end up buying a new acoustic guitar next year. I kinda play a mix of every kind of music on Acoustic guitars. Anyone know which guitar/brand I should go for (I know everyone has their favorites, but I need some options here lol)? I might just end up sticking with nylon because it's just so easy and fun for me, but I have no idea what brand is good. Seeing how I'm not a classical guitarist who needs a 10,000 dollar guitar. I just need something in the $900 to $1500 range. I was thinking maybe a vintage Martin 00-18G would be good because you can find them pretty easily in that price range...

 

[Dogbreath]

tl/dr





as far as what I've read about steel vs nylon is that you shouldn't try to put steel strings on a guitar that was made for nylon. Too much tension from steel strings and could mess up the neck.

other than that, I'ma go back and read what you were talkin about.

 

[Dogbreath]

nope... still tl/dr....

 

[FoulPhil]

tl/dr





as far as what I've read about steel vs nylon is that you shouldn't try to put steel strings on a guitar that was made for nylon. Too much tension from steel strings and could mess up the neck.

other than that, I'ma go back and read what you were talkin about.

Yeah I know that brotha, but that's not what I'm asking about LOL. I know it's a long post, but I wanted to explain in detail the issues I'm having. Hopefully I didn't make it more confusing than it needs to be.

 

[Dogbreath]

Yeah I know that brotha, but that's not what I'm asking about LOL. I know it's a long post, but I wanted to explain in detail the issues I'm having. Hopefully I didn't make it more confusing than it needs to be.

maybe I should read it then?

 

[Dogbreath]

yup.

had nothing to do with what I wrote.

There's a guy here at work that had a nylon classical that he put steel acoustic strings on the g, b and e and he likes it.
I thought it sounded like ass.

Not sure how you'd get more projection out of a classical unless you plugged in or miked it and it kinda sounds like you're loking for more projection out of it.

am I close this time?

 

[Dogbreath]

what about some Elixirs for the classical?

?

 

[FoulPhil]

yup.

had nothing to do with what I wrote.

There's a guy here at work that had a nylon classical that he put steel acoustic strings on the g, b and e and he likes it.
I thought it sounded like ass.

Not sure how you'd get more projection out of a classical unless you plugged in or miked it and it kinda sounds like you're loking for more projection out of it.

am I close this time?

Yeah closer. I'm thinking about switching from Steel To Nylon just for the ease of playing. I love just being able to play it like butter with no straining. It's much more enjoyable for me. On steel string acoustic some of the stuff I play puts a lot of strain on my hand holding down weird chords etc. On nylon it's like a hot knife though butter, but I like the sound of steel string better. So, how do you get a steel string guitar to play as easy as a Nylon guitar without loss of volume and projection?

I found these strings for Classical guitars that are made from steel, but I'm assuming they are much more light weight than non-classical steel strings, which might be the absolute perfect solution to my problem. If I could just get a bit more of the steel string sound in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd strings (E B G) then I could just switch over to a classical style guitar and have the best of both worlds...

Rotosound Silk 'n Steel Classical Guitar Strings | Musician's Friend

There are other brands as well that make the silk n steel type strings for classical guitar. So, I need to know which is the best brand and what classical guitar I should look into buying. Do I go with a new codobra or a vintage martin? You dig, dawg?

 

[DM60]

I put steel on an classical once, bent the neck (totally bent it like the front of a boat). As far as I know, playing the steel stringed guitar is the only way to build up finger strength and getting your finger tips hard enough to take the strings. I have been playing acoustic for a long time.

Once thing you might to look at to make it easier, bar chords are out. They are just too hard for me on an acoustic. Electric, not a problem, but acoustic, I can't get the same ring. So, I play with a lot of open strings. To keep it flexible, use a capo or alternate tunings. I think these was an article on this on this site this week. I use a capo as I don't like screwing with the tuning all the time.

Probably didn't help, but hopefully more to think about.

 

[FoulPhil]

I put steel on an classical once, bent the neck (totally bent it like the front of a boat). As far as I know, playing the steel stringed guitar is the only way to build up finger strength and getting your finger tips hard enough to take the strings. I have been playing acoustic for a long time.

Once thing you might to look at to make it easier, bar chords are out. They are just too hard for me on an acoustic. Electric, not a problem, but acoustic, I can't get the same ring. So, I play with a lot of open strings. To keep it flexible, use a capo or alternate tunings. I think these was an article on this on this site this week. I use a capo as I don't like screwing with the tuning all the time.

Probably didn't help, but hopefully more to think about.

Yeah that's the thing. I can play anything on Steel string guitar. I love steel string guitars, but because I use a lot of bar chords and different styles I find my hand straining a lot and not in a good way. After buying a cheap classical guitar and finding complete ease in the playability department, I would like to have that same ease in my steel string too LOL. It was like my playing got 75% better the minute I tuned up because it was just so much easier to play than I'm use to. So, I figured I should try to find some kind of middle ground where I can get the tones I want and the easy playability too. It's just so relaxing to be able to play with out the slightest strain on my hand.

 

[mjbphotos]

You might want to bring your Martin in to a luthier for a proper set up - it should not be that much harder to play than the nylon string guitar. Keep practicing it and you will build up finger strength so it gets easier and sounds better - as you say, using a pick wiht steel strings works better for your music. You might want to seek out another steel string guitar that is 'easier' to play, try the Taylor GS Mini - it's shorter scale means the strings are not as highly tensioned as a full-size guitar.

Also, not sure why you think you are getting more volume out of the nylon string guitar (picked) than the Martin. Have you set up a mic in the room to experiment and confirm? What you hear with your ears 12" or so ABOVE the guitar may not be the same as what is heard 6-8 ft out from the front of the guitar.

Never tried silk-and-steel strings as I don't have a classical guitar. Extra tension on the neck would be a prime concern.
I tried a Taylor nylon string at a recent Roadshow, not sure of the model, but it was one of the mid-priced ($2500-$3000) ones. I'm not a finger-picker naturally, but it sure did sound sweet and made me sound like I knew what I was doing. Wayne Johnson, the highly skilled guitarist who was doing the demos, told me it was a pleasure to hear someone else playing the guitar so he could hear its tone.

 

[muttley600]

Don't go putting steel strings on your Classical guitar. It aint what it was designed for and there is an even money chance you'll fubar it.

As for which is best and which is easier that is entirely a personal choice. Yes you have to put less physical effort into effort into nylon strings, the tension on them is way below that of steel strings for the same scale length and pitch. That doesn't mean that you automatically get a better or more balanced sound.

As far as brand and type? Again only you can decide. Get out there and play as many as you can. Get someone to play it in front of you so you can judge it out front. Ignore the name on the headstock and tell pushy sales people to take a hike. One extra thing in your case. Don't audition steel string and steel strings on the same day. Have a few days auditioning classical stuff and a few days doing the same with steel string stuff. Oh and enjoy the ride it's meant to be fun.

 

[FoulPhil]

You might want to bring your Martin in to a luthier for a proper set up - it should not be that much harder to play than the nylon string guitar. Keep practicing it and you will build up finger strength so it gets easier and sounds better - as you say, using a pick wiht steel strings works better for your music. You might want to seek out another steel string guitar that is 'easier' to play, try the Taylor GS Mini - it's shorter scale means the strings are not as highly tensioned as a full-size guitar.

Also, not sure why you think you are getting more volume out of the nylon string guitar (picked) than the Martin. Have you set up a mic in the room to experiment and confirm? What you hear with your ears 12" or so ABOVE the guitar may not be the same as what is heard 6-8 ft out from the front of the guitar.

Never tried silk-and-steel strings as I don't have a classical guitar. Extra tension on the neck would be a prime concern.
I tried a Taylor nylon string at a recent Roadshow, not sure of the model, but it was one of the mid-priced ($2500-$3000) ones. I'm not a finger-picker naturally, but it sure did sound sweet and made me sound like I knew what I was doing. Wayne Johnson, the highly skilled guitarist who was doing the demos, told me it was a pleasure to hear someone else playing the guitar so he could hear its tone.

I always felt the Martin could be a bit lower in action, but even so the pressure required to hold some of the chords I'm playing causes my hand to cramp up kind of. Overly straining it. Let's just say the Martin is probably 50% easier to play than most other acoustic guitars I've played. Part of the reason I bought it was because it was easier to play and sounded better to me than any other guitar I tried. I think the Nylon guitar just got me thinking if I could get that kind of action why not go with it? I freaking love it, just don't like the dinky kinda ukulele sound of the treble strings when you strum it LOL.

Don't go putting steel strings on your Classical guitar. It aint what it was designed for and there is an even money chance you'll fubar it.

As for which is best and which is easier that is entirely a personal choice. Yes you have to put less physical effort into effort into nylon strings, the tension on them is way below that of steel strings for the same scale length and pitch. That doesn't mean that you automatically get a better or more balanced sound.

As far as brand and type? Again only you can decide. Get out there and play as many as you can. Get someone to play it in front of you so you can judge it out front. Ignore the name on the headstock and tell pushy sales people to take a hike. One extra thing in your case. Don't audition steel string and steel strings on the same day. Have a few days auditioning classical stuff and a few days doing the same with steel string stuff. Oh and enjoy the ride it's meant to be fun.

Yeah I know about not putting on steel strings on the classical guitar. What about the silk and steel strings that are made for classical type guitars? I just want less of the uke sound in treble strings. When I'm flat picking some bluegrass it sounds kinda dinky like a ukulele. I hate that... LOL Everything else sound great though.

 

[FoulPhil]

I'm going to have to try some of those silk and steel strings for classical guitar. Here's a video of a dude using them and although he's a bit of a noisy and clunky player they sound more like a steel string guitar and less like a UKE. So, this may be just what I'm looking for. I don't get out much to the music stores anymore. I hate guitar center and their shit selection. They have ever single guitar accept the ones I want to try. So, if I end up switching to a classical style guitar I'm thinking I'll buy a vintage Martin 00-18G because you can find them in the same price range I'm looking for. I'm just a guy who likes playing guitar not some big rock start with a ton of cash to burn. So, I gotta go with what's practical most the time. A year from now I might be tired of it and want to sell or trade my current guitars for something new...

 

[c7sus]

If you never had the herringbone set up you need to get that done.

Does "3.0" mean a 3mm? You might as well be using a 50-cent piece for a pick!

At $30 for the guitar if it doesn't work out you have a new paddle for your canoe.

 

[FoulPhil]

If you never had the herringbone set up you need to get that done.

Does "3.0" mean a 3mm? You might as well be using a 50-cent piece for a pick!

At $30 for the guitar if it doesn't work out you have a new paddle for your canoe.

LOL! Yeah 3mm big stubby picks. There is actually a good reason to use such a thick pick. They are very sharp pointed. And with the thickness and sharp point it slides off the strings with super speed. I started using them many years ago when I was first learning to shred with tremolo picking styles. The only problem is I tend to wear down the point fairly quickly and have to order the 2 dozen packs a few times a year. Another benefit of using them is that on acoustic guitars they tend to produce a thicker, more wooden or earthy tone than picks that are thinner and made from different materials. It's actually a very noticeable difference in tone and not one of those things that only people with "blessed ears" can hear. They are a bit odd at first, but a 3 pack of them is only a few bucks and worth a try

 

[muttley600]

I'd still be cautious about using silk and steel on it. You may be good but they do exert more tension. Also be prepared to spend more on strings if you use silk and steel. They don't last long.

Really the classical is a different beast to the steel string. The bracing is different, the neck set and design is different, everything is different.....

If you want to explore hybrids then look into some of the Godin stuff from a while back or look at some of the solid bodied classical's. The Chet Atkins Gibson model is a good start point. Others make them cheaper... They can get a more powerful sound but they are NOT acoustic in the true sense of the word.

Your other option is to look into a small parlour style guitar that can use silk and steel. That is a decent half way house. You will struggle to find what you are after because if it was available we would all have one... It's nature of the beast and it is what it is..

 

[muttley600]

If you never had the herringbone set up you need to get that done.

Does "3.0" mean a 3mm? You might as well be using a 50-cent piece for a pick!

At $30 for the guitar if it doesn't work out you have a new paddle for your canoe.

Not quite 3mm but I use a small heavy pick that is easily 2mm. Most jazz players use a thick pick as well. I can't get along with those flimsy feeler gauge shims you guys use...

 

[FoulPhil]

I'd still be cautious about using silk and steel on it. You may be good but they do exert more tension. Also be prepared to spend more on strings if you use silk and steel. They don't last long.

Really the classical is a different beast to the steel string. The bracing is different, the neck set and design is different, everything is different.....

If you want to explore hybrids then look into some of the Godin stuff from a while back or look at some of the solid bodied classical's. The Chet Atkins Gibson model is a good start point. Others make them cheaper... They can get a more powerful sound but they are NOT acoustic in the true sense of the word.

Your other option is to look into a small parlour style guitar that can use silk and steel. That is a decent half way house. You will struggle to find what you are after because if it was available we would all have one... It's nature of the beast and it is what it is..

I might just have to decide I'm ok with nylon strings and make the switch over or just suck it up and stick to steel string if I can't find an alternative. I'm looking into your recommendations now

 

[FoulPhil]

Godin stuff from a while back or look at some of the solid bodied classical's. The Chet Atkins Gibson model is a good start point.

I already don't like them just by looking. I want something I can just pick up, play, sing and it be nice and loud for my voice. That's why I love acoustic guitars. I can pick it up and play if I'm taking a poop, sitting on the porch or laying in bed. Anyplace, anytime, anywhere. I doubt I'll ever play live although it's something I really want to do. I have bad anxiety problems... LOL

The thing is I don't even know of any brands for a good classical guitar. I'm thinking the Martin 00-18G would be a nice one to get, but I really have no idea. The newer 000C has electronics and stuff, but not sure I'll need that not to mention I don't want a rich-lite fretboard or what ever it's called. NOT FOR THAT MUCH MONEY. I want something kinda old and bluesy looking man. You dig dawg? I'll be playing all kinds of stuff on it not so much classical music though.