Crackles & PCI Latency & USB audio device

[jonasvugt]

Hello everyone!
This is my first post, but I've been reading this forum quite a lot to decide what equipment to buy for my very simple home-studio. This is really a great site! I decided on the fast track pro. I've read that there are some bandwidth limitations with usb devices, but I figured it wouldn't be much of a problem for me, because I only want to record one track at a time.
I received my Fast track pro almost two weeks ago and after hours and hours of searching on the internet, tweaking my computer and XP I still have a very annoying problem when I record something. I hear these ramdom crackles. Playback and monitoring (on the decive) work great, until I press the record button. And I really tried (almost) everything. Now as a last resort I have some options left: change my motherboard, buy new (better) RAM or change PCI Latency settings. Because I'm on a small budget I would like to try if setting the correct PCI latency will fix the problem. The only thing is: all posts I've read regarding this subject are about PCI Audiocards.

My question is: What are the (more or less) correct PCI Latency settings for USB Audio? On my tweaked system I disabled all devices I don't use: the ethernet card, onboard audio, parallel and serial ports and also the USB ports I don't use. When I open Powerstrip I can change PCI latency settings for these devices: Two USB Controllers, IDE controller and Graphics controller.

This is my computer:
ASROCK K7VT4A+ (VIA KT400A)
AMD XP 2600+
512 mb RAM
40Gb @ 7200RPM and 120Gb @7200rpm (NTFS)
NVidia FX5200
Windows XP SP2

I really hope someone can help me out. Thanks in advance!

 

[knugen]

The specs you have given does not imply that your machine shouldn't be good enough.

What software are you using? Have you tried recording with different software?

 

[jonasvugt]

Thanks very much for your reply.
I know, my system should easily meet the minimum requirements. But I read somewhere that VIA chipsets are not really compatible with Audio devices and that the combination can cause problems. The same with RAM, I read somewhere that cheap or noname RAM can also cause problems. But it's so hard to figure out what to do to fix this problem.

About the software: I use Ableton's Live Lite 4. This was included with the M-Audio. I also downloaded the demo version of Pro Tools M-powered. But no luck, the same random crackles. I even tried Windows Sound recorder.

But I have to say.. after playing around with some settings, I can now record one track clean. When I record a second track however...
I've uploaded some samples:
http://www.geocities.com/friedcheckensss/First.wav
http://www.geocities.com/friedcheckensss/Second.wav

In the second one you can hear 3 cracks. sometimes it's even worse. I really don't get it. Is it the driver, the device itself or the hardware combination of my computer?

 

[knugen]

Have you tried downloading the newest drivers for your audio-interface from the M-Audio website?

Since you have the same problem with different software the issue has to be related to hardware or drivers. I've never heard of RAM causing such problems (unless you have a faulty RAM-chip, but that would cause other mysterious problems as well) it might, as you point out be related to the VIA-chipset.

Try the driver first (if you haven't already done so).

 

[jonasvugt]

Yes, I've tried the newest driver. There are only two drivers available and I think the second driver is only a small adjustment to make the Fast track pro work with pro tools m-powered. This didn't help either. Here's a small list of what I tried:
- I tried all different latency settings in the control panel
- I updated the driver
- Clean installs of XP
- Installed latest VIA 4x1 driver
- Set up two different hardware profiles
- Changed to standard PC to make sure the USB controller has an IRQ
for itself (VIA USB Enhanced controller is on 10 (My graphichs card is
on 11) and VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal host controller is on 5)
- Turned off all services I don't need (XP starts up using only 70mb)
- I followed all suggestions mentioned in the knowledge base on m-audio.com
- Tweaked XP mentioned on http://www.musicxp.net/tuning_tips.php
- Set the PCI Latency of my graphics card to 64 (it was 248)
- Made sure the lines weren't too hot.

So, I'm a bit lost here

 

[knugen]

Well, you've certainly got your end covered If I were you I'd try to approach the M-Audio Tech-Support to see if they know of anything. It certainly doesn't work as it is supposed to... If they can't help I'd say the next thing would be to take it back to the store to see if you can get it replaced with something that works on your setup.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but you've already tried all my ordinary "PC-problem-solving-methods"...

 

[knugen]

I just thought off something, stored off way in the back of my head...

Sometimes setting a too low latency values can cause pops/cracks in the sound recorded since the hardware can't keep up at the speed that the audio packages are delivered. try raising the latency value in Live... I think the actual thing you have to set is the size of the Buffer in the Live preferences pane...

I dont't have time to test this with recording now, but when i do playback in Live 5.2 just playing the metronome the sound gets all screwed up if I lower the buffer size (-> lowers the number of samples and latency)

 

[maximum octopus]

I have seen many problems similar to this and a few of the solutions.

First off, disconnect ANY other USB device connected to your computer. You stated that you were disabling the ones you weren't using, but I don't how many you are.


Enable/disable USB Legacy Support in your BIOS. Sometimes this does nothing, sometimes it doesn't. Try it either way and see if it makes a difference.


In the device manager check all the properties of USB host controllers. There may still be a disabled one that is sucking up bandwidth. It happens sometimes. Likewise, you may have disable all of your USB devices only to find that the one you are using is only reserving 10 percent bandwidth. An easy thing is to find the one that already has the most reserved and just lug into that one with all the others disabled.

In the LINE6 forums you will find alot of talk about a "white noise" problem having to do with the Line 6 Toneport. This was causing blasts of white noise to happen while people were recording. And I mean blast. I know for sure that I sustained some hearing damage through the headphones after it almost knocked me off my piano bench. My ears rang for 2 days and everything thing seems quieter out of my right ear now when I am listening to an audio book. I should sue.


Possibly this is a similar problem. I know the solution in this case was to get this cheap USB hub from Radio Shack and run all of your USB devices through there. Look around in the Line 6 forums for the exact brand. I never tried, I sold the damn thing instead. http://www.line6.com

I know there are a few more things, but I gotta start getting dinner ready. I will swing by later and check.

 

[Bulls Hit]

Have you tried increasing the number/size of the buffers in Live?

 

[jonasvugt]

Thanks very much for your input.
@ Knugen & Bulls Hit: Live is directly linked to M-Audio's control panel. I tried all different latency/buffer settings, from 128 up to 4096. And there is no difference at all in sound quality.
@maximum octopus: Thanks for these suggestions.
- All usb devices, except the soundcard, are disconnected. I only use USB for my USB-Stick, but this is not connected at the moment.

- I tried enabling/disabling USB Legacy support but that didn't work. The sound seemed to get worse when I enabled it.

- There are 6 USB ports on my motherboard. 4 at the back and the possibility to have two in the front (I haven't got the slightest idea where though )
I saw that some USB ports only reserved 47% for my Fast track pro, and others 71%. I never noticed that before. Thanks for the tip! So I plugged my device in the one that reserved most bandwidth. I disabled all others and made sure they didn't reserve 10% for the system. Now I have two Host Controllers enabled: The 'VIA Rev 5 or later USB Universal Host Controller', this is the one I use for my device. The second is the 'VIA USB Enhanced controller'. Do you think I can disable this second one too?

- I read some of the posts at line6.com. Someone who suggested buying an USB hub wrote this:
"I have had the best results with my GP with an externally powered USB port. The issue you can have with Motherboard USB ports is that it is true they are powered, they of course get their power from the PC's power supply, if the PC is maxing or comming close to maing the power supply I have found that devices that need USB power usually suffer."
So, if I would buy an USB hub, it would be for more (stable) power supply? This got me thinking: The Fast track pro is powered via USB or optional AC power adapter. So you can use it as a mic-preamp or sth. when you're not near a computer. Would it be a good idea to buy an adapter and use it even when it's connected to the computer? Or would it use the USB powersupply anyway?
Thanks so much for your help so far. I'm afraid I'm still stuck with the same problem though, so if you know of anything else that might help, please let me know.

 

[jonasvugt]

Eureka!

It works!!
I'm so happy right now!!
All my crackles, white-noise, pops & clicks have gone away!
Here's what I did:
I bought a cheap USB PCI Card (Sweex, 13 euro)

I read at the live6 forums that buying a PCI USB card is sometimes a good idea, especially if you have onboard USB Controllers that aren't that great.
So, I went out to get one, installed it and tried recording something in Live. It didn't work. Loads of crackles. I was so fed up, that I was about to set my computer on fire. Luckily I could control myself and booted Windows in safe mode. There I uninstalled all USB Controllers.
I restarted, let windows find the drivers and made sure that the USB Controller my device was in wasn't sharing an IRQ, and loaded Live.
I was expecting the same problems.. but no! It all worked! I recorded 7 or 8 tracks, added loads of effects on all of them, and it all just works! No noise/crackles whatsoever. Even on the lowest latency setting.
I still can hardly believe it. Since I received my Fast track pro, I've spent every waking hour trying to fix this. I really tried everything. So 6 clean installs of XP, every tweak possible and a lot of other things later, I can finally use it. WOW

Maximus Octopus: Thank you so much for your suggestions. Thanks to you I found the live6 forums and the solution.

 

[maximum octopus]

It works!!
I'm so happy right now!!
All my crackles, white-noise, pops & clicks have gone away!
Here's what I did:
I bought a cheap USB PCI Card (Sweex, 13 euro)

I read at the live6 forums that buying a PCI USB card is sometimes a good idea, especially if you have onboard USB Controllers that aren't that great.
So, I went out to get one, installed it and tried recording something in Live. It didn't work. Loads of crackles. I was so fed up, that I was about to set my computer on fire. Luckily I could control myself and booted Windows in safe mode. There I uninstalled all USB Controllers.
I restarted, let windows find the drivers and made sure that the USB Controller my device was in wasn't sharing an IRQ, and loaded Live.
I was expecting the same problems.. but no! It all worked! I recorded 7 or 8 tracks, added loads of effects on all of them, and it all just works! No noise/crackles whatsoever. Even on the lowest latency setting.
I still can hardly believe it. Since I received my Fast track pro, I've spent every waking hour trying to fix this. I really tried everything. So 6 clean installs of XP, every tweak possible and a lot of other things later, I can finally use it. WOW

Maximus Octopus: Thank you so much for your suggestions. Thanks to you I found the live6 forums and the solution.

No problem. Glad i could help. Just wish my hearing would come back!

 

[dgatwood]

It works!!
I'm so happy right now!!
All my crackles, white-noise, pops & clicks have gone away!
Here's what I did:
I bought a cheap USB PCI Card (Sweex, 13 euro)

I was just about to suggest exactly that. Motherboard manufacturers tend to gang certain low-priority interrupts together, and USB interfaces are generally used for low-bandwidth devices, so it is safe to do so... unless you're doing audio.