Condensers, Ribbons and Preamps! Oh My!

[swivelingchair]

Well, It's that time of the year again where I have some extra cash to spend and I would like some advice on how to spend it. I currently use a M-Audio 410 on a Macbook Pro running Logic Express 8. I would like to buy a new mic (or mics) as I think this is probably where my money would be best spent. I've been looking at the RSM-2. I have read that it's a decent first ribbon, although I get the impression it's not very popular around here, and the price isn't so bad. My question is would I need to run a pre-amp between the ribbon mic and my interface or will the pre-amps on the 410 work just fine? If a pre-amp is needed/suggested should I go with something of the solid state persuasion or tube?

BTW, I'm recording acoustic guitar and vocals most of the time. (thought this info might be useful)

 

[Armistice]

Actually, what you need with a ribbon, is not a pre-amp, but a tree-amp...

Especially if it's a yellow ribbon.

OAK brand tree-amps are great, the US made are definitely better than the Chinese copies though... be warned..

I'm sorry, that's not at all helpful, I have no idea, but someone will be along soon with a sensible reply, I'm sure...

What's a microphone, anyway?

 

[warlock110]

Well, It's that time of the year again where I have some extra cash to spend and I would like some advice on how to spend it. I currently use a M-Audio 410 on a Macbook Pro running Logic Express 8. I would like to buy a new mic (or mics) as I think this is probably where my money would be best spent. I've been looking at the RSM-2. I have read that it's a decent first ribbon, although I get the impression it's not very popular around here, and the price isn't so bad. My question is would I need to run a pre-amp between the ribbon mic and my interface or will the pre-amps on the 410 work just fine? If a pre-amp is needed/suggested should I go with something of the solid state persuasion or tube?

BTW, I'm recording acoustic guitar and vocals most of the time. (thought this info might be useful)

well, ribbon mic do not need phantom power, so any sort of preamp will work (including the one on your interface, BUT I have heard that they do require alot of gain, so maybe your preamp from the interface will not work well. As far as preamp there is quite a few out there depending on your budget. I think there are some specifically make for ribbon mic (because it's got several versions of the same model but one of them is for ribbon)... anyways like always, low end is around 100, mid range is around 500 and the high end stuff is like 800+

 

[WhiteStrat]

I can appreciate the desire for variety, and if you've got a number of mics, then a ribbon might be good for you. (You didn't mention what kind of mics you already have.)

But if it needs to be a "go-to" mic, I'm not sure a ribbon would be a great choice based on the fact that you're recording acoustic & vox. Vox--maybe/yes depending on the the voice. But for acoustic?

I've got a few ribbons and while I checked 'em on acoustic, they're never my go-to for that purpose.

 

[warlock110]

I can appreciate the desire for variety, and if you've got a number of mics, then a ribbon might be good for you. (You didn't mention what kind of mics you already have.)

But if it needs to be a "go-to" mic, I'm not sure a ribbon would be a great choice based on the fact that you're recording acoustic & vox. Vox--maybe/yes depending on the the voice. But for acoustic?

I've got a few ribbons and while I checked 'em on acoustic, they're never my go-to for that purpose.

+ from what I heard they're not very durable.... atleast not as durable as the condenser, so I guess they're not ideal for "work horse" type of thing .

 

[antichef]

Yeah, maybe on vocals, but most of us here like small diaphragm condensers (SDC) on acoustic. If you don't have any of those, you might look into it, since you'd likely see a big difference in your recorded acoustic sound.

That said, I've been really impressed with the ribbons from the last group buy, especially for guitar amps. I've changed out the transformers in them, but that was low-skill work, and the parts were fairly cheap. I have a Nady ribbon mic, too (not the RSM-2), and it's OK, but the ribbon is thicker than than the group buy ones (it's 6 microns instead of 2 microns), and I can really hear the difference. I do have a mic that's similar to the RSM-2, and I think it's more intended as a vocal ribbon (but it also has the 2 micron ribbon). I haven't tried it on acoustic, but I bet it would be too bass-boomy.

Another thing to worry about with cheap ribbon mics is the state that the ribbons are in when they get to you. Many of mine (including the Nady) had "sag", where the ribbon is too loose, and it's sort of flopping around. On all of these, my unskilled-self was able to re-tension them to my liking, using just a small screwdriver and a Q-tip to pull the ribbon out a little. If you don't see yourself doing something like that, then see if you can get the sales person to somehow demonstrate that the ribbon is in good shape before you buy it.

If I decided to get a ribbon, I wouldn't run out and get a preamp to go with it at the same time -- chances are yours will work. The cheaper ones tend to have transformers with higher output - so much that you'd wonder why anyone characterizes them as low output. The better sounding replacement transformers have lower output, but still enough for most pro-sumer grade preamps, particularly if you're recording a fairly loud source, like a guitar amp.

If you have time to wait, sign up for the group buy and get one or more ribbon mics that way -- it may take a few months to get them, but these'll be the 2 micron ones. They may be sagging when they arrive, but the manufacturer is aware of the problem this time, so we're optimistic.

 

[dgatwood]

If you're buying a ribbon, I'd consider one of the phantom powered ribbons. The 410's pres should handle most of the modern ribbons, I think (assuming they're similar to the pres in the FW1814). but not with a huge gain margin, and for vocals, you have to have a pop filter and you'll probably still get a lot closer than I'd like to avoid getting too much noise/harshness from the pres.

With a phantom-powered pre, the levels are a lot hotter, so you'll find that it would work much better.

 

[swivelingchair]

Suggestions, Comments and Complaints?

Well, since I have this thread going what are some good SDC to look at and also could someone point toward info on stereo micing? I don't have a large variety of mics but I thought that since I already own some dynamics(two SM57s), LDC (MXL V63m) and SDCs (two 603s') a ribbon might make a nice addition. Maybe I should just go for two nice SDC and one nice LDC? Again how important is a pre-amp in this case? I see that as far as inexpensive pre-amps go the DMP3 is fairly popular here, is this worth the cash if I were to buy a nice condenser of any size? Or should I save for something more? What is the general consensus on the ART MPA Gold?

 

[antichef]

what don't you like about your sound now?

 

[swivelingchair]

I wish I could get a clearer sound, more articulate. Cleaner maybe. Although I would like to say I'm mostly happy with the results I get, given my level of experience and the sound of my rooms.

 

[antichef]

The thing about your rig is that it seems fairly well balanced to me -- a huge improvement in any one area will call for a huge improvement in the other areas as well, just keep that in mind.

That said, I have a DMP3, and it sounds pretty clear. I'm not familiar with the 410, but note that it's made by the same folks.

I assume you're using the 603s for the acoustic? I have a MXL 991 (very similar to the 603), and it has been the unfortunate victim of my attempts to learn mic modding -- it still works, and sounds better than it did when I got it, but not as good as it did before it overdid it . Are you handy with a soldering iron? I got a really big improvement in the sound of the 991 (clarity and smoothness) when I replaced the capsule coupling capacitor (the one on the opposite side of the little circuit board from all the rest, on the capsule end on two little raised posts) with a 1000pf polypropylene (or polystyrene) capacitor (should have stopped then ). I got the capacitor for 40 cents. If you decide to look inside your 603s, remember that you screw the little screws at the base *into* the body, not out, until they go just below the casing, then you can pull out the bottom. This was my first, and most tragic mistake. Also, it's good to make sure that you've unscrewed/removed the capsule before you do this.

Beyond that, opinions abound. I usually use Shure SM81s, that I got used. We're all hearing very good things about the Naiant X series (X-Q, I suppose): http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/microphones.html -- I have a couple of the older Naiants, and they're great.

For vocals, you'll hear people here say that you have to match the mic to the voice, and that no one can guarantee a good recommendation. If you're a guy and you sing moderately to very loud, then the Shure SM7b (large diaphragm dynamic) is a favorite around here -- I love mine.

 

[swivelingchair]

What would a tube mic do for me?

 

[antichef]

What would a tube mic do for me?

Now this is getting a little over my pay grade (maybe it has been the whole time ) - the only tube mics I have experience with are the group buy mics - I have one ACM-6802T -large diaphragm, and one ACM-310 -small diaphragm (I also have a Naiant tube mic that's out of production which I haven't used too much). The 6802T is currently with Marik, having undergone some radical modifications. I love both the mics (including the 6802T before mods), but I'm not the best person to tell you specifically why they're different in a practical sense. They're both high output, low noise, and very full sounding. The 310 puts a stringed instrument right up in your face -- I only have one, so I can't use it for stereo. I was also able to get different sounds by changing the tube in the 6802T, which is cool - it went from somewhat harsh with the stock tube to much smoother with an old GE tube I had.

Anyway, maybe someone better qualified than I can expound.