Cleaning Faders...

[cjacek]

Of course we're cool...

***Cool***

 

[M-520]

Hi all, I have just started servicing my 520 with the standard low profile alps faders.

I have not started on the faders yet. Problem being i can't view Cory's video.

I'm getting a Quicktime logo, that's just buffering constantly?

any chance of a download link, that I can keep on my pc?

Thanks in advance. You guys are a fantastic help for the novice!

Paul

 

[M-520]

Scratch that last post!

I was being too impatient.

Thanks for the Vid Cory!!!

 

[sweetbeats]

yeah...all my pics and videos are hosted on a server with a relatively slow pipeline so when the file sizes get into many Mb's it can take a bit.

 

[Ignatius-]

So, I finally opened up my m-312b and it has the faders that Cory's m-500 series/m-308b mixers had (K-series? something else? a picture is attached)... Cory, I know you posted a picture of the fader open, but I was just wondering how those faders actually open up. Can you keep the connections while you open them? My soldering skills are almost non-existent, and I don't want to screw anything up that I can't fix.

Also, everything in the mixer was actually quite clean, and the faders look like they are in great condition - at least from what I can see without opening one up. And while I was in there I found that a fuse is blown (the original manual I got when I bought the mixer is missing the last twenty pages or so I don't exactly know what that would affect), but it is the "2 1/2 Amp 250V" fuse that is at the bottom of the PCB that holds the fuses. If anyone with the manual could let me know what that possibly would affect that would be great... thanks again for all the help.

 

[cjacek]

I was just wondering how those faders actually open up. Can you keep the connections while you open them? My soldering skills are almost non-existent, and I don't want to screw anything up that I can't fix.

Also, everything in the mixer was actually quite clean, and the faders look like they are in great condition - at least from what I can see without opening one up. A.

Let me chime in, if I may.... Tonight, with the aid of the great video that Cory made, I was able to, quite painlessly, remove one of the faders. Here's the deal: There are 2 screws holding the faders from the face. Remove them and especially watch out for a little "star" shaped washer under the screw (mine has only one of the washers but there may be two). Don't lose it. The fader then will be hanging by a few wires. Unfortunately they can't be unplugged but are soldered in. No worries tho. As Cory pointed out to me, they will easily sustain the weight of the fader. Now, have you watched Cory's video? The only difference is that you work on opening it up while the fader is still wired to the mixer. Just hold it so that you don't pull anything and try prying open those little tabs and take the element out (as per Cory's video). I'm attaching a few photos how I did mine and what I've found! Seriously, it may look good from the outside (mine did) but on the inside it's a horror show, crud and grime all over the element and wiper, due to a spill but also from years of accumulated stuff. (Also surely the reason that it doesn't cleanly pass audio). You need to clean it out. So to answer, yes, you can indeed keep the fader element connected by the wires, take off the top (carriage) part and clean the element while it's attached (not to forget the wiper etc..). If you screw up and one of the wires breaks then I'm sure you can just easily reattach it. It should hold tho.

EDIT: I wonder if it could be possible (the way you have your mixer bottom side up) to leave the faders screwed in and actually try to just pry the little tabs off. That way, you will have access to the element and even the carriage (wiper) (can take them out) and leave the rest in place (meaning the metal part of the fader). Might be easier for you but I took mine out 'cause I need to give the metal / rubber casing a bath (yuck).

EDIT2: On second thought, you really should try to remove the faders (as initially laid out) 'cause there's no other effective way to gain access otherwise. You will need to stand the mixer on one of its sides to have access to the top and bottom. I have mine propped on its back (where the connectors are), making sure it sits on a semi-soft area (like a few pieces of cardboard) and that it doesn't fall or sway easily. Then I access the 2 screws on the top and then go on to the bottom to remove the casing and expose the element.

 

[Ignatius-]

Now, have you watched Cory's video? The only difference is that you work on opening it up while the fader is still wired to the mixer. Just hold it so that you don't pull anything and try prying open those little tabs and take the element out (as per Cory's video).

Sorry, I don't think my post/picture made it clear... I attached another picture just to make sure (sorry the resolution isn't the greatest). I have these kind of faders (the upgrade, I believe - not the "low profile" version) and am not exactly sure how to get them apart... I was asking because I saw that Cory had a picture of it intact and then apart - just wondering how he went from point A to point B.

Oh, and I replaced the fuse and there was no noticeable difference. So, I guess that wasn't the problem. I will just have to wait and clean it out once the Deoxit arrives.

 

[cjacek]

Sorry, I don't think my post/picture made it clear... I attached another picture just to make sure (sorry the resolution isn't the greatest). I have these kind of faders (the upgrade, I believe - not the "low profile" version) and am not exactly sure how to get them apart... I was asking because I saw that Cory had a picture of it intact and then apart - just wondering how he went from point A to point B.

Oh, OK, then that's a whole new issue.... I'm not sure how you open those up but those are conductive plastic faders, as per Cory's post, which means that there's a different set of recommendations for cleaning it, if you can get it open. I did some research on that (the conductive plastic) and you don't wanna use anything other than water and / or mild soap dilute with water. Read this: http://www.coopersound.com/Application/cleanpg.htm
This, of course applies, if your fader is of the conductive plastic and not carbon. BTW, are your faders working and passing audio well or..? Refresh my memory.

NOTE: Not sure if miroslav's faders open similar to your ones. Try it.

NOTE2: I'm not sure Cory figured out a way to pop those open or not but he'll chime in I'm sure.

 

[Ignatius-]

I did some research on that (the conductive plastic) and you don't wanna use anything other than water and / or mild soap dilute with water. Read this: http://www.coopersound.com/Application/cleanpg.htm
This, of course applies, if your fader is of the conductive plastic and not carbon. BTW, are your faders working and passing audio well or..? Refresh my memory.

Thanks for the info - I'm pretty sure they are conductive plastic (so much for the F5 I just bought... I'm sure my m-216 could use a good cleaning though).

The article states:
"ONCE THE FADER IS OPENED, YOU WILL WANT TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE WIPERS, BUSHINGS, AND TRACK. USING A "Q-TIP" COTTON SWAB OR A PIECE OF SOFT COTTON CLOTH (NO PAPER TOWELS OR KLEENEX-TYPE TISSUES), DAMPENED WITH LUKE WARM WATER, GENTLY WIPE DOWN THE WIPERS, TRACK, AND THE GUIDE ROD(S). USE THE DILUTE SOAP SOLUTION, IF REQUIRED, IN THIS SAME MANNER. IF YOU HAVE USED SOAP, MAKE SURE TO REMOVE IT WITH CLEAN WATER AFTERWARDS."

... so let me get this straight: the conductive plastic elements and wires are supposed to be completely dry? I guess someone said that earlier, but I didn't really understand at the time. So I should only wash off the track of the fader (with a cotton q-tip) - not the rest of it? Or is that wrong?

Oh, and the faders are passing audio, but all of the faders are real scratchy (to the point where I can't move them at all when recording). Kind of a bummer, but the big thing that I am worried about is that the levels on my board are all really low, at least anything that goes through a channel strip. With the channel and PGM faders in the shaded areas the trim has to be almost all the way up to achieve a 0 VU reading - a lot higher on the line input than I would expect it to be. I posted about in another thread, but it is kind of relevant here as well. I don't really have the proper calibration tools to perform this task (I am using the True RTA software on my computer - I mean, it's free - but I am not confidant that it is actually at -10db, and Ghost made a comment about that too). What do you guys use to get a proper -10db 1kHz [or otherwise] test tone? Could someone suggest something? I have been looking, but I don't really know what I should be looking for... thanks again for the help.

 

[cjacek]

... so let me get this straight: the conductive plastic elements and wires are supposed to be completely dry? I guess someone said that earlier, but I didn't really understand at the time. So I should only wash off the track of the fader (with a cotton q-tip) - not the rest of it? Or is that wrong?

I would clean areas they mention (with q-tip and also cotton make up remover pads) and if you go over the entire element then no harm done, IMO. Yes, you would need to have it completely dry before reinstalling it.

Oh, and the faders are passing audio, but all of the faders are real scratchy (to the point where I can't move them at all when recording). Kind of a bummer, but the big thing that I am worried about is that the levels on my board are all really low...

Not sure if the cleaning will help the levels but the scratchiness will probably be fixed if there's dirt and crud in there.

 

[sweetbeats]

Sorry, I don't think my post/picture made it clear... I attached another picture just to make sure (sorry the resolution isn't the greatest). I have these kind of faders (the upgrade, I believe - not the "low profile" version) and am not exactly sure how to get them apart... I was asking because I saw that Cory had a picture of it intact and then apart - just wondering how he went from point A to point B.

Ignatius, sory for the confusion. I DIDN'T go from point A to point B...the picture of the fader intact and the picture of the fader opened up are different models of faders from two different mixers...I believe they are both ALPS faders but I don't know how your faders open up. I will know at some point because I want to learn and those are the same kind of faders in my Soundtracs desk but I don't know at this point.

 

[sweetbeats]

Daniel, nice going on getting your fader opened up.

Looks NASTY in there...I'm sure even a basic cleaning would bring that thing back to life.

I still haven't heard from Caig but, again, I haven't been bird-dogging it like I normally would as I've been working on our remodel 'til the wee hours every night, and every day too on the weekends.

 

[Ignatius-]

Ignatius, sory for the confusion. I DIDN'T go from point A to point B...the picture of the fader intact and the picture of the fader opened up are different models of faders from two different mixers...I believe they are both ALPS faders but I don't know how your faders open up. I will know at some point because I want to learn and those are the same kind of faders in my Soundtracs desk but I don't know at this point.

Thanks for the clarification... Yeah, I see what you are talking about - I guess I thought they were, at least, very similar. In the short time I had the fader out I tried to get it apart (it looks like there are four tabs grouped into two on each side that might have something to do with it, but I don't know), but I lost the "star"-shaped washer inside the mixer and spent the next ten minutes looking for it.

Anyway, if you do figure out how to open it, let me know. Otherwise, I will probably try again in the next couple of days, but I really don't want to break one because I don't any extra

 

[cjacek]

Daniel, nice going on getting your fader opened up.

Looks NASTY in there...I'm sure even a basic cleaning would bring that thing back to life.

Yes, Cory, your video proved invaluable (as I'm a visual person).

Not sure what was in there but it sure was nasty and some of the stuff was really hardened and tough to get out. Now, some of you will think I'm nuts but I took a microfiber cloth, dampened it in 1:1 ratio of water and white vinegar and poof .. it's like a brand new fader now. There is reason behind the insanity you know. (Will take photos later).

My plan (slightly deviates from yours - if not already ), is to possibly apply F5, with a q-tip, solely to the tracks. Another thing to do is actually immerse and gently wash the metal part and slider part. Now, as all the grease will be washed away, I thought of applying a tiny amount of white lithium grease, that I have, on the metal to plastic contact / sliding areas. Cory, thoughts, good or bad?

BAD NEWS: One of the short tiny wires unfortunately broke off, from the element. Surprisingly it's way more thin than the others and pretty fragile (all across the faders). Why didn't TEAC design them as plug-in, as in the 388? Shameful.

I had the fader out I tried to get it apart (it looks like there are four tabs grouped into two on each side that might have something to do with it, but I don't know), but I lost the "star"-shaped washer inside the mixer and spent the next ten minutes looking for it.

Anyway, if you do figure out how to open it, let me know. Otherwise, I will probably try again in the next couple of days, but I really don't want to break one because I don't any extra

A tip for not losing that star shaped washer is to try to put some adhesive tape (adhesive side up), under the fader so that it 'catches' it if it falls. I use a green painter's tape, a wide one.

Interesting I have one of those faders you speak of, from a good friend on this board, examined it and tried to figure out a way to open it, even attempted to pry off those tiny tabs with no luck. Those things look seriously sealed up, unless I'm not seeing something.

Anyway, good luck to us all!...

 

[sweetbeats]

I'm not sure as to the reason for hard-wired or plugin...the hard-wired would ensure that no future oxidation causes trouble...My Soundtracs faders are all hard wired, so I wouldn't say it isn necessarily a production corner cut...I think there may be some theory behind best practice which may have changed from the time of the M-300 series being designed and the 388, or it may have just been the direction of two different project managers or design engineers.

So are you saying that the wire broke off from the solder lug on the element?

That's a pretty easy repair if that's the case.

It happens.

Regarding the star washer: I always remove them and set them aside for later reassembly. Then when its time to reassemble I use a magnetic bit holder, put the philips bit in there, stick one of the fader screws to that (and of course the magnetic force holds it on there) and then when I stick the screw through the hole in the dress panel with the bit holder I can put the washer on the other side and the magnetic force also holds the washer there...then I can lift the fader into place with my (now) free hand, hold it there and spin the screw in with the hand holding the bit holder. Then when that screw is in I can put the second on in place as I normally would.

I'll have to have a look at those optional ALPS faders...curiosity is getting to me. I'll post up if I figure anything out. I seem torecall looking at them a couple years ago and also not finding an easy solution and let it go at that point...but there must me a way...

 

[cjacek]

I'm not sure as to the reason for hard-wired or plugin...the hard-wired would ensure that no future oxidation causes trouble...My Soundtracs faders are all hard wired, so I wouldn't say it isn necessarily a production corner cut...I think there may be some theory behind best practice which may have changed from the time of the M-300 series being designed and the 388, or it may have just been the direction of two different project managers or design engineers.

Yeah, inquiring minds indeed wish to know... IMHO (and I could be completely wrong - not the first time ), I think it probably is a cut corner 'cause those plug ins must cost more, or at least I think they do. It saves a lot of hassle for the service person. Can you imagine if absolutely everything was hard wired.. .......

So are you saying that the wire broke off from the solder lug on the element?

That's a pretty easy repair if that's the case.

It happens.

Cory, attached is the photo of that "breakage", to visually illustrate.

Also attached, ending on a happy note, is that same fader element completely cleaned, using my magical concoction.

 

[sweetbeats]

The fader element looks great!

Okay, no sweat on that broken wire. Man if you were close I'd jaunt over and fix it up, but you're not soooo...

The same things in my soldering tips thread work here too. That lug has a hole in it for the wire and you can heat it up and suck the junk out of it, trim the end of the wire just to get a clean end, strip a little off and solder it back in.

Let me know if I can help but I've had this happen several times so, again, it happens.

Not that it isn't a bummer, but totally fixable.

 

[M-520]

Here's a couple of before and after pics from my cleaning session.

 

[M-520]

Your threads have been very helpful.

I have been lucky enough to have the plug-in faders in my console.

And have used the deoxit d100 in a nail polish style bottle to clean with. this stuff works wonders.

I have so far cleaned 20 faders, Yet to attack the master section. It looks like a jungle of wire under there.

Cory how did you go, getting to the str master and Aux faders in your 520?

And another if I may? with regard to taking out the channel strip from the 4pack module. Is it as simple as taking the nuts off the pots to release the board from the face plate?

 

[sweetbeats]

Nice work!

Once you get the knobs off then there are screws that hold the dress panel to the chassis. Take those off, remove the dress panel and then remove the pot nuts...IIRC there are some screws (2 or 3?) that also hold the card to the chassis. Once you get those off the card drops out.

I never got to cleaning the auz and stereo master faders on my M-520 but you have to pull the master module and start opening things up to get to all of them...I think the aux master faders are pretty easy as they are along the left edge of the master module...might be the same then for there stereo master faders once you pull the aux master faders but I'm not sure if they are hard-wored or plug in. Leave yourself a trail of bread-crumbs...