Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
I found them to be similar.
This is clearly an acoustic piano.
Some of the notes were a bit 'ringy', so maybe have too much reverb.
I wonder how much of this is the piano and the room.
It would probably help if you also posted a MIX_0, just the naked recording.
I knew a pianist who had a CD recorded, and insisted on too much reverb, against the advice of the recording engineer.
The result was dripping wet, and I didn't want to subject myself to listening to it a second time.
This is clearly an acoustic piano.
Some of the notes were a bit 'ringy', so maybe have too much reverb.
I wonder how much of this is the piano and the room.
It would probably help if you also posted a MIX_0, just the naked recording.
I knew a pianist who had a CD recorded, and insisted on too much reverb, against the advice of the recording engineer.
The result was dripping wet, and I didn't want to subject myself to listening to it a second time.
rob aylestone
Moderator
Compression in the same sentence as classical piano? Reverb wise they are as Raymond says similar - but if you hadn't said it was real, I would have guessed a good sample package, where the MIDI value crosses the line into the next sample with harder attack - some of the F's leap out and a player would not have played like that, apart from a mistake - the runs don't flow when suddenly a different tone note pops out. Maybe if you have used compression that is not helping. It is a very close perspective - there is reverb, but no room? I've never compressed a classical piece apart from wreck recovery when it was a bad recording. After all, natural decay is what makes a great piano put up against a poor one. What mic technique did you go for, because those changes of timbre are quite obvious?
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amc252
New member
I agree compression doesn't sit well with classical music piano but, since YouTube audience usually listen on cellphones or earbuds, I wanted to optimize the dymanics for that scenario. I added some light compression to the final mix.
The piano was recorded with 3 pairs of microphones:
Close on the bridge: DPA 4060 omni-directionals
Tail: Schoeps CM62S omni-directionals
Audience perspective: Microtech Gefell M950 Cardioids
On MIX_1, I left the bridge and tail mics dry and added reverb only to the room mics.
On MIX_2, I added a smidgen of reverb separately on each track trying to create a more cohesive sound.
COMPRESSION
MIX_1 THRESHOLD -16 RATIO 2.0 ATTACK 0.2 RELEASE 150
MIX_2 THRESHOLD -20 RATIO 2.5 ATTACK 100 RELEASE 250
The piano was recorded with 3 pairs of microphones:
Close on the bridge: DPA 4060 omni-directionals
Tail: Schoeps CM62S omni-directionals
Audience perspective: Microtech Gefell M950 Cardioids
On MIX_1, I left the bridge and tail mics dry and added reverb only to the room mics.
On MIX_2, I added a smidgen of reverb separately on each track trying to create a more cohesive sound.
COMPRESSION
MIX_1 THRESHOLD -16 RATIO 2.0 ATTACK 0.2 RELEASE 150
MIX_2 THRESHOLD -20 RATIO 2.5 ATTACK 100 RELEASE 250
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rob aylestone
Moderator
Got you. I’d like to hear it without compression. Never found YouTube really an issue with lighter classical piano. To my ears so that’s just me, it just sounds close miked with reverb rather than ‘real’ if you know what I mean.
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amc252
New member
Sure, here is the raw track without reverb or compression.
TRACK_RAW
I appreciate your taking the time to listen to it. I'm fairly new to recording and my ears are nowhere as refined as yours.
elly-d
Member
i liked mix 2 best, sounded a bit softer less bright.
rob aylestone
Moderator
The raw track sounds better but reveals a few things. The mics are too close - so you are hearing more of the hammer sounds and less soundboard. That could be why some notes jump out a bit. I think maybe you've just not found the sweet spots. I have a Yamaha grand, and with the mics close in it sounds quite similar. For noon-pop, If I must close mic, I might also put up a couple of 414's in a ordinary square room - and use something like old AKG451s doing the close mic - but if it's a classical piece of your style, the two 414s on the right hand side sound more 'real'?
Attachments
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amc252
New member
I tried to follow your advice in our evening session. I recorded a short piece placing a pair of DPA 4011 cardioid near the right hand side of the piano, kept the mics at the tail, and raised the audience mics up about 9ft in ORTF.
In retrospect, I think this last move might have been a mistake since they sound brighter but less present than when they were wide and low.
Anyway, here is the raw track.
MIX_4
Papanate
Well-known member
I think the Mix 4 track sounds more modern - also your playing style makes it sound edited.
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amc252
New member
I like it better too. It seems more natural and organic.
Unfortunately, since Yuja wouldn't let me anywhere close to her piano, I'm stuck recording music students at the local university
. On the bright side, they let me use equipment I could never afford otherwise.
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
Nice tone on the raw track, but those heavy notes are still there.
rob aylestone
Moderator
That’s a more realistic sound, but still very close and the stereo field is very strange. Are you certain you have not got two sets of mics with one around the wrong way. I’m hearing left hand right and right left which is fine if that’s where you wan5 the listener, but either the piece was glitchy or something odd happened as it’s stuttery? Some of the playing seems to feature abrupt damper mutes that damp the strings but are soundless. What kind of piano is it? The action is whisper quiet. No pedal thinks or too quick pedal offs. If you are using DPA mics be very careful with placement
What is the room like? I hear absolutely no room sound, so these audience mics? What are they contributing? I think maybe whatever you are doing is too clinical. Not enough musical. What does a simple stereo recording sound like? No closer than say 2m/6ft? A pair of cardioids maybe in X/Y? You seem to have players, pianos and mics galore, but they’re not quite gelling together, more like fighting a bit?
What is the room like? I hear absolutely no room sound, so these audience mics? What are they contributing? I think maybe whatever you are doing is too clinical. Not enough musical. What does a simple stereo recording sound like? No closer than say 2m/6ft? A pair of cardioids maybe in X/Y? You seem to have players, pianos and mics galore, but they’re not quite gelling together, more like fighting a bit?
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amc252
New member
Yeah, equipment, players, piano, everything is okay except the guy recording LOL.
I'll try to address your doubts one by one:
MIX_4 setup was:
Main mics: DPA 4011 cardioid AB - right hand of the piano (as per your pic.) Trebles on the left. -3db
Second mics: Schoeps cmc62S omni AB - at the tail. Stereo image pretty much center -7db
Room mics: Schoeps cmc64 cardioid ORTF - about 7 feet up at the edge of the stage. Trebles on the left -16db
I was kinda in a hurry and screwed up something somewhere, so yes, there were quite a few glitches in the recording.
The piano is a C. Bechstein Model D.
The room is the concert hall of our university, big, not huge, not overly resonant in my opinion even empty.
Like I said above, I liked the room mics better when they were far apart and lower (Gefell M950). The sound was darker (which I like, hence the tail mics) and more present. The ORTF setup sounds brighter but less rounded to my ear.
However, I don't know if mixing tail and right side perspectives might muddle the sound.
rob aylestone
Moderator
A concert hall? You haven’t given us a clue in the recordings. I was thinking a large practice room, with sound treatment, that kind of thing. If it is a typical one then the job is to capture the instrument in the space. A nice piano in a concert hall should sound like the ‘whole thing’. I would suggest, as you have a decent mic collection, using just two mics to start with. Forget clever techniques and do a simple X/Y no close than 2m, perhaps further, or even an A/B pair and experiment with simpler stuff. At some point you will capture the right kind of sound - one that sounds like a Bechstein in a concert hall.
TAE
All you have is now
Holy analysis paralysis batman! Damn they all sound good enough for government work. The performance is great and the audio of any of the tracks is adequate to share the piece with the world. But that's just my get r done attitude. I'm old, not a trained professional engineer like Rob and certainly have loss some of my hearing. Since YOU like the darker sound go for that since your the artist and it's your paint brush. Rob is a seasoned pro at this stuff so I'd take his advice above and get r done!...to YOUR liking...Your creation, . your rules. Good luck! FWIW I sync'd the two original tracks maybe a millisecond apart and again though it sounded great mixed together...Kind of like we do with vocals.
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amc252
New member
I had no chance to record this weekend, but I uploaded the single microphone tracks I used in MIX_4 so that, if you got time, you can listen to them and tell me which one would be the best starting point and how to proceed from there.
"DPA 4011-AB-piano lip"
"Schoeps cmc62S-AB-tail"
"Schoeps cmc64-ORTF-audience"
Thanks for the support. I have a long way to go, but that's the fun part, isn't it?/ Interesting shifting the tracks for effect. Thanks for sharing the tip, I'll give it a try.
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