Chord Substitutions

[64Firebird]

I know that any dominant chord can be subbed with any other dominant chord that's a flated 5th away (like Eb9 for A7) and I know about subbing the realative miner (like Am for C).

I'm wondering, are there any other chord substutions?

 

[Whoopysnorp]

realative miner

Hey, I also have a relative who works in the mines!

Sorry, just a joke. 'Fraid I can't help with your question.

 

[Tom Hicks]

There are a zillion of them.All chords a third apart share at least two tones.Example:C major (C-E-G) to E minor (E-G-B) to G major (G-B-D) to B dim. (B-D-F) to D minor (D-F-A) to F major (F-A-C) to A minor (A-C-E).
In theory class in college,they taught us that you can re-harmonize a melody line using this so that a major-sounding line can become harmonized minor and still fit the notes correctly.

 

[teknomike]

I've got an amazing book called Chord Chemistry (by Ted Greene - from 1971 !) that goes into lots of detail about substitution and the way chords are constructed.
He also includes charts showing voicings of virtually every chord in every position.
A little heavy at times, for a non "theory" guy like me, but I have learned a lot from it.
If I remember when I get home, I'll have a look and see what I can dredge out of it about substitutions.

mike

 

[64Firebird]

I've got an amazing book called Chord Chemistry (by Ted Greene - from 1971 !) that goes into lots of detail about substitution and the way chords are constructed.
He also includes charts showing voicings of virtually every chord in every position.
A little heavy at times, for a non "theory" guy like me, but I have learned a lot from it.
If I remember when I get home, I'll have a look and see what I can dredge out of it about substitutions.

mike

AHHH! A book! I love books! I'll look for it today.

 

[Tom Hicks]

The Ted Greene book is a good one.Also check out Joe Pass Guitar Chords.

 

[64Firebird]

I've seen some of Joe Pass's books. I'll look for both. Thanks guys.

 

[Tom Hicks]

The thing I like about the Joe Pass book is that he gives the fingerboard shapes without labeling them.He makes you analyze them and see the possible subs.That's where I first figured out that the minor 7 flat 5 chord is the same thing as half diminished (used mainly in jazz as a ii substitute).

 

[teknomike]

My god !

Geez, as I said, I'm not much of a theorist, but this is really killer - here's an excerpt (from Chord Chemistry):

"For a dominant 7th chord, you may play a m7 type chord whose root is a 5th higher than the root of the dominant chord, but you do not only play this m7 type chord: you play it for part of the duration of the dominant chord, and then play the dominant chord (or extension). Example: for one measure of C7 (4 beats normally), you could use Gm7 for 2 beats, and then C7 for 2 beats; or Gm7 for 3 beats and then C7 for 1 beat, etc. "

Only when he gives me the example, do I understand....

Now I know why I never got this far in the book (it's chapter 11).

mike

 

[AlChuck]

That's just substituting a ii-V cadence for a V chord, one of the most basic of substitutions... it sure sounds more complicated when ol' Ted explains it.

One thing that makes holding on to this substitution stuff is that many of them only work in certain contexts. That is, substituting chord type x with chord type y sounds great if chord type x is serving as the dominant chord relative to the relative mnor of the song's key, but terrible in almost any other application.

The usefullness of subs is also (often) very style-influenced. Try substituting a nice maj 7 add 9 for a power chord in a Who song... theoretically it's correct but it sounds downright stoopid.

 

[JR#97]

That's just substituting a ii-V cadence for a V chord, one of the most basic of substitutions... it sure sounds more complicated when ol' Ted explains it.

One thing that makes holding on to this substitution stuff is that many of them only work in certain contexts. That is, substituting chord type x with chord type y sounds great if chord type x is serving as the dominant chord relative to the relative mnor of the song's key, but terrible in almost any other application.

The usefullness of subs is also (often) very style-influenced. Try substituting a nice maj 7 add 9 for a power chord in a Who song... theoretically it's correct but it sounds downright stoopid.

doooooood... that's my favorite chord... especially in the open position on a nylon string. So what if it makes the Who sound like they're being led by Burt Bacarach....

 

[teknomike]

Don't nobody be dissin' the Who, now...

"I'm a substitute, for another chord..."

 

[foo]

If you put together a 'harmonized diatonic chord scale' you will see the substitutions lining up for you.

E.G. In the key of G:

f# g a b c d e f# g a b c
d e f# g a b c d e f# g a
b c d e f# g a b c d e f#
G A B C D E F# G A B C D

I II III IV V VI VII I II III IV V etc etc

The capital letter at the bottom is the root of the chord and the Roman numerals represent the position in the scale.

The chords always come out as:

I = Maj 7
II = min 7
III = min 7
IV = Maj 7
V = Dom 7
VI = min 7
VII = min7 b5 (half diminished)

So in this key, you have G Maj 7, A min 7, B min 7, C Maj 7 etc.

As an example, if you look at the II chord (A min 7) and the VII chord (f# min7 b5), you will see three of the same notes.

That means that if the bass player is playing an F#, you cna play an Amin chord and it will sound just right, because it is the same notes as the f# m 7b5. Here's where it gets tricky, tho.
Stay away from the low notes, as you will be too close to the bass player and it will sound muddy, and if you play an Amin7, you will have a pretty significant clash between the 'g' in your Amin7 and the f# the bass player is playing so only play the triad (a, c, e).
You have to know where you're going and be able to resolve to a chord tone as a point of rest, or it will sound really nasty (unless you really know what you're doing, in which case you can make it work). The strongest resolution is the fifth of the chord, followed by the third, then the root and then the seventh. Check out David Gilmour for the sweetest resolver on the planet.

The cool thing about these subs is that you can also substitute solo lines in the same way.
E.G. a cool lick in B min will sound great over a G Maj 7, too (take a look at the chord structure above and you'll see why.

A good way to learn this is to write out the chord scale for every key and learn them to where you don't have to think about them.

What other chords have a lot of the same notes?

foo

 

[64Firebird]

Wow! This is a lot of info! I'm going to print this stuff out and give it some REAL study. I keep hoping that if I can learn all this stuff maybe I'll sound as good as Robin Ford (not likely).

I couldn't find any of the books you guys talked about, but I did find one called "Everything About Guiter Chords." It seems to have what I'm looking for.

Thanks everybody!