Cassette 4 or 8 track recorder to DAW Advice/Tips ?

[COPIFUNK]

Hello,
I have been driving myself crazy trying to figure out a way to incorporate my Cassette tracks with my DAW tracks..I have gotten lots of advice online and from some engineer friends but, All the advice is for Tape Decks with 3 heads.
Im trying to record to an 8 track Cassette (Yamaha Mt8x) Then transfer the individual tracks *It has 8 outputs. To my DAW then maybe line them up in Ableton or something to get them playing in time..minus any tempo /timing drift.
I have tried Many Many things already.I can't give up because although I love the Simplicity of Digital "editing..fx..automation..additional tracks ect...
I learned on Analog its the only recordings i listen to and Its the sound i prefer for my music.

Any Tips ? Anyone else having success with this kinda thing?
Using a "Cassette multitrack recorder"
to get an Analog feel/sound with the flexability of Digital.
Thanks

 

[sweetbeats]

Is the noise reduction defeatable on track 8 of the MT8X?

If so, you need a simple sync box like a JL Cooper PPS-2. It generates SMPTE timecode, which you record on track 8 of the Yamaha (with noise reduction OFF) at -7 ~ -10 VU. Then when you connect the output of track 8 to the timecode input of the sync box, and connect the MIDI out of the sync box to a MIDI input of your MIDI interface for your DAW, and then set Ableton Live to sync to incoming MIDI timecode (if it can do this) then your DAW will chase-lock to the MT8X. You can now record analog tracks on tracks 1 ~ 7 of the MT8X and record to tracks in the DAW and they will stay synchronized.

Keep in mind that by doing this you are locking your DAW to the mechanical transport of the MT8X...your Yamaha is then essentially the clock master for the DAW so your DAW hardware will need to be able to deal with the slight shifts that are bound to exist with the mechanical transport, but this is the only way to keep the DAW tracks and the analog tracks locked if you are using the MT8X. It can result it pops, clicks and dropouts in the DAW. This is generally not an issue with computer hardware available these days but just be aware.

 

[COPIFUNK]

Thanks a lot Sweetbeats.
Unfortunately my MT8x wont sync with my JL Cooper pps-1
Its really a drag ;-(
but, I have to get this to work! I can't deal with all digital sound any longer.
Thank you.

Is the noise reduction defeatable on track 8 of the MT8X?

If so, you need a simple sync box like a JL Cooper PPS-2. It generates SMPTE timecode, which you record on track 8 of the Yamaha (with noise reduction OFF) at -7 ~ -10 VU. Then when you connect the output of track 8 to the timecode input of the sync box, and connect the MIDI out of the sync box to a MIDI input of your MIDI interface for your DAW, and then set Ableton Live to sync to incoming MIDI timecode (if it can do this) then your DAW will chase-lock to the MT8X. You can now record analog tracks on tracks 1 ~ 7 of the MT8X and record to tracks in the DAW and they will stay synchronized.

Keep in mind that by doing this you are locking your DAW to the mechanical transport of the MT8X...your Yamaha is then essentially the clock master for the DAW so your DAW hardware will need to be able to deal with the slight shifts that are bound to exist with the mechanical transport, but this is the only way to keep the DAW tracks and the analog tracks locked if you are using the MT8X. It can result it pops, clicks and dropouts in the DAW. This is generally not an issue with computer hardware available these days but just be aware.

 

[sweetbeats]

What do you mean by "it won't sync"?

The PPS-1 is going to carry the SMPTE timecode signal from track 8 where you stripe the code, and then convert that to MTC and the computer will sync to that. Maybe I'm getting wrapped up in semantics but just want to make sure you understand that the MT8X isn't going to sync to anything...you're trying to get stuff to sync to it.

So...tell me more about what is happening/how you are attempting to setup a sync relationship.

 

[COPIFUNK]

Thanks Again..
I stripe the tape then try to get my computer to read the MTC but, nothing happens..not even a little blip that says that its getting signal..
Im using an MAudio Firewire 410 to try to get the MTC into my computer
Nothing is happening.I have recorded the Smpte several different times trying to get the correct levels..everything should be fine..?
Thanks for your help but, Im not sure how much more you can help me with this issue..I have tried everything.;-(

What do you mean by "it won't sync"?

The PPS-1 is going to carry the SMPTE timecode signal from track 8 where you stripe the code, and then convert that to MTC and the computer will sync to that. Maybe I'm getting wrapped up in semantics but just want to make sure you understand that the MT8X isn't going to sync to anything...you're trying to get stuff to sync to it.

So...tell me more about what is happening/how you are attempting to setup a sync relationship.

 

[sweetbeats]

Can you confirm that the MIDI connections to the DAW through 410 are A-OK and (very important) have you set the DAW to clock to incoming or external MIDI timecode (MTC)?

And you have the output of track 8 on the MT8X connected to the master timecode input on the PPS-1 and the MIDI out of the PPS-1 connecting to the MIDI IN of the 410 and you have tested the cables?

 

[jpmorris]

Some sequencers require you to specify the MIDI devices that they will accept timecode from. Are you sure that's been done?
With some (e.g. SONAR) when they are set up to listen to MTC they will wait for it and do nothing whatsoever until they get a signal. Others will lock to an incoming MTC when they get it.

Have you tried bypassing the cassette deck entirely? With the Rees TS-1, when you put it into Record mode (i.e. when it is generating the timecode for you to stripe) it also outputs MTC while it is doing that. Have you tried that, just to make sure the software/MIDI interface is up to snuff?

 

[famous beagle]

Yeah, what these guys are saying is the right way to do it. I've synced my Tascam 414 4-track cassette many times and gotten it to work like a charm, but you do have to have everything set up correctly, which includes all the details mentioned above.

If you don't sync it, your only other option is to transfer all the tracks at once. You mentioned that your Yamaha MT8X has 8 outputs. If you have an A/I for your computer with at least 8 inputs, like this one:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html

then you should be good to go. This is the A/I that I have, and it's worked great for me so far. I still have to sync when I want to transfer because the 414 doesn't have individual outs (only stereo outs).

However, I did once just fly the tracks into my computer two at a time without syncing and then time-stretch tracks 3 and 4 to match tracks 1 and 2. That's what I did on our recording of "Eyes on Fire" here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=328768

And I didn't notice any unusual artifacts. It should be pretty easy to do as long as you have a good time-stretch program. Actually, on this one, I just did it all inside my DAW, which is Mackie Tracktion.

Granted, it's not preferable. I don't like having to mess with the tracks like that if I don't have to, but on this project, we'd already filled up all 4 tracks, so striping with SYMPTE wasn't an option.

 

[COPIFUNK]

Im gonna try it again tonight and let you know.
Thnaks again.
by the way im using Cubase sx3

Can you confirm that the MIDI connections to the DAW through 410 are A-OK and (very important) have you set the DAW to clock to incoming or external MIDI timecode (MTC)?

And you have the output of track 8 on the MT8X connected to the master timecode input on the PPS-1 and the MIDI out of the PPS-1 connecting to the MIDI IN of the 410 and you have tested the cables?

 

[COPIFUNK]

Thanks for the music..sounds really good.
And the Tips..The transfering all 8 tracks at once plan was my next one.;-)
Im glad to know that this is working for somebody..
I have 2 questions please:

Does your computer usually stay in sync with the Tempo/Beats/Bars ?
Can you still edit to bars and beats in your DAW if you are working at the songs original tempo ?
+
How do the digital effects seem to work with the analog tracks? do you lose any of the cassette feel with the digital panning..? transfer? fx..

Thank you.

Yeah, what these guys are saying is the right way to do it. I've synced my Tascam 414 4-track cassette many times and gotten it to work like a charm, but you do have to have everything set up correctly, which includes all the details mentioned above.

If you don't sync it, your only other option is to transfer all the tracks at once. You mentioned that your Yamaha MT8X has 8 outputs. If you have an A/I for your computer with at least 8 inputs, like this one:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html

then you should be good to go. This is the A/I that I have, and it's worked great for me so far. I still have to sync when I want to transfer because the 414 doesn't have individual outs (only stereo outs).

However, I did once just fly the tracks into my computer two at a time without syncing and then time-stretch tracks 3 and 4 to match tracks 1 and 2. That's what I did on our recording of "Eyes on Fire" here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=328768

And I didn't notice any unusual artifacts. It should be pretty easy to do as long as you have a good time-stretch program. Actually, on this one, I just did it all inside my DAW, which is Mackie Tracktion.

Granted, it's not preferable. I don't like having to mess with the tracks like that if I don't have to, but on this project, we'd already filled up all 4 tracks, so striping with SYMPTE wasn't an option.

 

[sweetbeats]

Cubase SX3 will most certainly sync to incoming MTC, so if the PPS-1 is working, you're cables are good and your DAW configuration is right it will work.

One question that you didn't answer...are you able to shut off noise reduction on the track you are striping with SMPTE timecode? Noise reduction has to be off on the striped track.

 

[Sonic Surgeon]

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html

That's good advice, and a perfect interface for what you need, man. Beagle is right.

I have an 1010lt, and use it for syncing in and out from a reel to reel device. It works perfect. You should be able to pretty much just push play after you have all the outs connected, and each track will begin recording at the same time to a different track in whichever daw program you choose. Makes it nice so you don't have to worry about drift or tedious line-up work.

 

[famous beagle]

Thanks for the music..sounds really good.
And the Tips..The transfering all 8 tracks at once plan was my next one.;-)
Im glad to know that this is working for somebody..
I have 2 questions please:

Does your computer usually stay in sync with the Tempo/Beats/Bars ?
Can you still edit to bars and beats in your DAW if you are working at the songs original tempo ?
+
How do the digital effects seem to work with the analog tracks? do you lose any of the cassette feel with the digital panning..? transfer? fx..

Thank you.

Hmmm .. I'm not sure about the beats/bars issue. I'm still kind of new to using a DAW. I know that many of them can auto-detect the tempo from music, so Cubase may be able to automatically determine what tempo the tracks from the Yamaha are in and set up a tempo map based on that.

But the computer will have to be the slave for the sync to work. Your Yamaha will be the master. Therefore, I don't think that you'll be able to edit to beats and bars in the DAW. I could be wrong though. Someone with more experience can confirm this I'm sure.

 

[COPIFUNK]

Thanks Sweetbeats,
Yes the noise reduction is off .
All the other things seem to be fine with my setup..cables all work I get midi signals from my keyboard using the same midi cable..Maybe its something in cubase? I have the sync on ext sync it says Idle but nothing happens when i start the 8 track.
Thanks for all your help.
Im going to find an easier way to do this...Maybe the 8 inputs at once route is the way to go for now.

Cubase SX3 will most certainly sync to incoming MTC, so if the PPS-1 is working, you're cables are good and your DAW configuration is right it will work.

One question that you didn't answer...are you able to shut off noise reduction on the track you are striping with SMPTE timecode? Noise reduction has to be off on the striped track.

 

[COPIFUNK]

Thanks Famous Beagle.
I have a few different ways that i can imagine doing what i want to do...
They all just seem like an extreme amount of work compared to computer only recording..

Hmmm .. I'm not sure about the beats/bars issue. I'm still kind of new to using a DAW. I know that many of them can auto-detect the tempo from music, so Cubase may be able to automatically determine what tempo the tracks from the Yamaha are in and set up a tempo map based on that.

But the computer will have to be the slave for the sync to work. Your Yamaha will be the master. Therefore, I don't think that you'll be able to edit to beats and bars in the DAW. I could be wrong though. Someone with more experience can confirm this I'm sure.