Can you help in guitar mixing?

[Mistral]

JonnyC you don't seem to be able to accept that different people have different tastes. And please define "hollow".. I've seen you use it all over the place. What is the characteristic you find in digital amp modelers, or pedals, or whatever, that makes it "hollow"? I can't for the life of me, figure it out. This could mean the EQ curve, but that is an attribute of a certain style of music, not the method in which it is recorded. For example, certain subgenres of metal typically go with scooped mids on the guitars.. I do admit some people overdo that, and personally I prefer a little more beef, but that's nothing that can't be accomplished with a modeler or a pedal.

 

[jonnyc]

JonnyC you don't seem to be able to accept that different people have different tastes. And please define "hollow".. I've seen you use it all over the place. What is the characteristic you find in digital amp modelers, or pedals, or whatever, that makes it "hollow"? I can't for the life of me, figure it out. This could mean the EQ curve, but that is an attribute of a certain style of music, not the method in which it is recorded. For example, certain subgenres of metal typically go with scooped mids on the guitars.. I do admit some people overdo that, and personally I prefer a little more beef, but that's nothing that can't be accomplished with a modeler or a pedal.

Find any other thread on this board where I used the term hollow. I'll accept different tastes, as long as they don't suck. You can ask the poster yourself, I've given him several things to try, and I feel I've been very helpful. I don't know what that hollow sound is, but, to me, that's what it sounds like and it's not good. IMO a shitty pedal is going to yield a shitty sound, I don't know why, but that's what I've found to be true more often than not. Aviel stated that the guitar sound on my recording is something close to what he wants so I'm trying to help him get there. Yes I'll bash people on here but Aviel is not one of them, I genuinly what him to get close to the sound he wants and IMO the zoom ain't helpin much. Now is there anything else about me you'd like to discuss, or can we get back to helping Aviel.

 

[Mistral]

I'm actually referring to a post you made earlier in this very thread..

I can pick an amp modeler or software out a mile away. It just always has some kind of hollow tone to it that I don't like.

So it just seemed to me that you're placing his recordings on the same level as amp modelers, whereas to me they're completely different tones.. makes it confusing to try to understand where you're coming from.. which is why I asked if you could elaborate.. no need to take it personal.

 

[CIRO]

I dont know i quite loved the Zoom i must say.. at least untiil now .

Anyway! here's my latest record, i think the guitars sound quite good, its the beginig of a song i am working on.

What do you think of this one?
The rythm were micced, and the solo was made by direct record.

http://firstva.xoompages.com/latest.zip

Good,Aviel!

Great solo guitar sound, I like it, altough without my monitors here (only PC speaker,and it seems good to me).
(Hey, Aviel, good news: my wife hears your tune now and commets:
It seems Joe Satriani.Is Joe Satriani?)
(But if you don´t like him, forget )

And another point:
I´m not a drummer, but...
...congratulations to to him/her (are a real drummer?)
Sounds very,very good to me.

 

[jonnyc]

I'm actually referring to a post you made earlier in this very thread..
So it just seemed to me that you're placing his recordings on the same level as amp modelers, whereas to me they're completely different tones.. makes it confusing to try to understand where you're coming from.. which is why I asked if you could elaborate.. no need to take it personal.

Maybe IMO his recordings do have an amp modeler/cheap pedal sound. After experimenting with everything from zoom pedals to mesa boogies I've found what seems to work. The lower end of the spectrum, meaning cheap pedals and amp modelers where always a huge pain in the ass to get the sound right. As I got better amps, the sound got better. I own a mesa now and I've gone from having to eq the shit out of the amp modelers and pedals to not having to do a damn thing. I wish I knew what to tell him to make it sound better, and it really doesn't sound terrible but it also doesn't sound close to something professional. His tunes are great and I think just something as simple as a great amp will put him right where he needs to be.

 

[mx_mx]

well i'm glad someone likes the mg100. i don't feel so bad now..volume wise the mg100 is great..but my recordings using my friends spider sound so much better tone wise...and way easier to record...
are you refering to the mg 100 kicks ass live or in band practice because of the volume level...or kicks the spiders ass because of the the tone...
in my opinion alot of amps lose tone with the volume cranked ..thats why i turn my amp up to around 4 and then use a p.a. if i have to live...it just seems all amps mud out after 4 or 5..
but i'm saving up for the peavey head...i can't figure out which i like better ...mesa boogie,,tripple x or the peavey jsx...peavey is way cheaper though.....i played all 3 with my own guitar and effects for hours..great amps for the money...the man told me i helped him sell a coulple because i was playing on them and freakin out over the tones i was getting in front of everybody,lol
but ha ha my friend shawn would be pissed because someone said the mg sounds better than his new 2X12 spider..he has wet dreams about that amp ,lol.keep rokin

I don't like the mg. I just like it better than the spider.

 

[travelin travis]

I hate saying it but, tubes, yep tubes. Tube amps sound so freaking amazing. Oh and disregard the freaking, I meant fucking.

I'd say that in general tube amps do sound better than solid state amps but there are alot of crappy sounding tube amps out there too. I would'nt generalize all tube amps as sounding amazing because many don't even sound good, much less amazing. I would say that all my favorite amp sounds come from tube amps, but specific tube amps. Alot of the favorable qualities that are associated with tube amps are missed by alot of metal players like the dynamic sound and feel that certain tube amps provide. Most of the guys that I know that use tube amps for metal playing don't even get their amps loud enough to get the power tubes working. Some tube amps, when dimed, have a feel that responds to your playing. It feels like the amp is alive. It makes the strings of the guitar feel spongy, rubbery, or something like that. It's like you push the amp with your playing and the amp pushes you back with it's tone. I know it sounds weird but it's almost like your having a converstation or dance with the amp. I'm not crazy!

 

[jonnyc]

Well Travis you're statement really goes without saying. With anything in life there are good ones and bad ones so I'd assume the same goes for tube amps. I got lucky by finding a great amp really cheap, but there are also really decently priced cheap tube amps out there he just needs to weed out the good from the bad. My comment about the tubes is just because now that I really know what that tube distortion sounds like it's like crack, you just can't get enough of it.

 

[Aviel]

One more thing you need to work on is whatever that hollow sound is in your recordings. All of them have it. Now it's not that your guitar tone isn't getting better it's just that there's this hollowness that I can't stand. So try this for me, unplug the zoom, open up your bedroom window, and dropkick that bitch right out to the curb. I've worked with a zoom before, I hated it so much that I broke it, yes it was an accident, but I'm sure I had really done the guy a huge favor. I hate saying it but, tubes, yep tubes. Tube amps sound so freaking amazing. Oh and disregard the freaking, I meant fucking.

i do have some respect for this zoom !
It serves me very good for live playing, also i dont have anything else and no really money to buy a tube amp, not in the nearest year i guess
so i have no choice of using it, and i have found out that it gives me better results from the amps dist...
Actually i started to like the sound i got on this record, but today i just can't get this sound again, and its even worse and it really pisses me off
I tried everythings the same as yesterday.. but its just differant!

Its just hard for me to believe that without a tube amp i wont get good results, maybe not "wow" results, but still, good sounding.
As soon as i will have the money (i have no idea how much those amps costs here.. the local stores sells only marshal and fenders, no messa boogie or so)
I will buy one, but for now..
Maybe i will try the condenser again? might bring the sound a bit more bright..

 

[Aviel]

Good,Aviel!

Great solo guitar sound, I like it, altough without my monitors here (only PC speaker,and it seems good to me).
(Hey, Aviel, good news: my wife hears your tune now and commets:
It seems Joe Satriani.Is Joe Satriani?)
(But if you don´t like him, forget )

And another point:
I´m not a drummer, but...
...congratulations to to him/her (are a real drummer?)
Sounds very,very good to me.

Thanks for the nice comment!
Well the solo was recorded direct, i am not quite satisfied of it, sounds clear, but it has no magic sound, that when hearing it i say "wow" (like when listening to pro records)

Hehe well i will take this as a big compliment to be mistaken to be Satriani, say her thanks from me! (of course i know him (Satriani) and loves him!)

The drums were programmed by myself using battery, but if they were mistaken to be real, its a good sign too!

the only thing that makes me sad now is that i cant get the sound that i got yesterday again

 

[jonnyc]

You know ericlingus started a thread like this a couple months ago. Everyone was trying to help and everyone was getting frustrated. A couple of us kept telling him that no matter how hard he tried he wasn't going to get the sound he wanted without a better amp. If I'm recalling it correctly some people of course claimed he didn't need a better amp and what not. Funny thing was, as soon as he got the better amp he was happy. So if you can't afford a good amp I'd say just be satisfied with a less than stellar tone. Plus if the song's good people really won't care how the guitars sound. If you can check out some mesa stuff on ebay, every once in a while you'll find a decent amp for 4-5 hundred bucks and the sound difference between your amp and a mesa would be night and day.

 

[Mistral]

Of course you're gonna be happy if you get a better amp.. that's just the way it goes.. but sometimes you just end up right back where you started. Not sure you're getting the best tone, not sure of yourself when it comes to mic placement and such.. I'll tell you one thing the amp modelers are superior at.. is consistency. Once you get a tone dialed in, you save it and it'll sound the exact same every damn time... maybe I sound like the devil's advocate here, but it's clear Aviel doesn't feel too comfortable recording an amp.. even if it is a bad one, who's to say a better amp will automatically make him happy with his recorded sound? So maybe it's not such a bad alternative.

 

[Aviel]

Yes i guess i will have to be satisfied with what i've got, but i am still sure that i can get better sound with it, maybe with layering and combing differant kinds of dist, mics, and many ways.
What freaks me out is that i did got a nice sound, i saved the presets on the pedal, but now its just sounds differant, i dunno why- might ne mic placments (though it was placed the same as i remembered), volumes, preamp gain, etc.. but those are really minor, i mean, i am sure i did the same thing.

I think that i dont feel good recording an amp that true, i dont have any working method, and i cant prejudge my sound, only after recording it, and sometime only after mixing.
it starts with the problem that i my "studio" is located in my bedroom, which means that when recording, i hear the amp itself, and the monitors.
So i cant actually hear the sound, till it was recorded, since when recording the sound of the monitors and amp blends together, and in headphones it just sounds differant.
Second, i dont really know what to do, lets say i feel my sound is too rigid, to dirty on treble, try moving the mic? or try reducing the treble?

and also, i have no idea when the sound i get is good for this mix, since only after hearing it layered, i get the final sound, which means i have to record each try 4 tracks, and then judge the sound, and also then it can still change in the final mic after final EQ and compressor.

I would say that any problem, could be solved in many ways (pedal, amp, mic, etc), and none of it can be checked "on line" (i mean monitor it online),
I guess that being a guitarist+ sound engineer+ monitoring is just much work,
will you reveal me the secret ?

 

[Mistral]

patience & much sacrifice..

but you are right... there are countless ways to approach these problems.. some days you just have epiphanies that bring you light-years ahead of where you were.. those days take a lot of not so successful days though hehe.

 

[rokinrandy]

with all this said aviel...the tone of the amp your amp sounds almost exactly the same as the peavey bandit i had a while back played with a kramer striker single coil guitar. and a digitech distortion pedal from the late 80's.
it's a small peavey practice amp....i listened to some of those recordings the other day that a friend has on casette..
on the songs called slime monster and i hate this world..we made crazy ass songs back then
i like to think we were ahead of our time
i'm curious if the size of the speaker is causing the undesired effect or if it would be an improvment to have atleast a 12'' speaker?????

 

[zoidpig]

Hi.
I take the point that you should get as close to the sound you want, before recording anything. But to me the "Latest" sample, sounded to me like it needed some EQ to bring up the mids, maybe high mids. it sounded a bit too dark to my ears.

On the tube amp thing. That's not really practical for us home recording guys though is it. I mean you can't get tube saturation at a level that won't get you evicted. I have to DI everything using tube preamps, moddlers, or occasionly miking up a valvestate. Mainly using a DC Demonizer now though.

One other thing. Just on compression. As a guitarist I use it a lot as part of my over all sound. That is compression in the FX loop. I've only been doing this for about a year, but can't believe I done with out it. smooths and sustains solos out and negates the need for compression on the tracks.

In my, all be it limited experience. it seems to be EQ which is the hardest bit to get right on guitar tracks.

Keep it up though aviel

 

[Keiffer]

A common misconception with a lot of newbs is they think they need more distortion to record when in fact less is more. If someone usually dials their distortion at 8-9 I'll turn it down to 5-6. Trust me the distortion sound coming from that zoom is no better than the distortion coming from your amp. Forget the pedal for now, just get your mic up to the grill, turn down your distortion and bass setting(around 3-4) and go from there. Trust me on this distorted guitars is the one thing I work my ass off to nail from the get go and as I've said earlier I don't have to do a damn thing to them in a mix, no compression, no eq, no nothing.

My experience is this generally holds true for weak distortions with few overtones and harmonics. A good tube amp with cab is much more forgiving... the gain can be set higher.

Here's an Example Clip:

Check my sig for others...

Direct in is just going to frustrate you even more. The best tones you'll ever get will be with an amp so really just work on getting it right on the amp.

I agree

Aviel, try a cab simulator like in iZotopes Trash. It can really help along with some patience.

 

[mbuster]

I've gotten some pretty decent tones by combining the pre-amp section of my amp with the box modeling in Trash. I like working this way because my recording time is often in the evening when a cranked up amp just wouldn't do. It's also flexible as shit. It's like having a bunch of cabs to choose from, and I get the tone from my amp's pre. I've never found a good distortion modeler I liked. For whatever reason, though, box modeling seems to work OK. Gots to have low latency to track this way, though.
That and using more mids and less gain than I one would imagine.

 

[xcrazymx]

some tips i've learned on recording distorted guitar:

1. keep your mids up and the bass settings low (do NOT scoop the mids). i usually end up rolling off the lower frequencies in the guitar anyway to keep it from competing with the bass.

2. don't go overboard with the gain settings. it's easier to sound good with a lot of distortion, but it doesn't translate well to a recording. adding distortion just adds overtones, which takes away from the fundamental frequencies. make sure you can still hear what you're playing clearly through the distortion.

3. layer your parts. record everything multiple times and see how you can adjust the mix to make things sound fuller.

4. when properly seated in the mix, the bass adds a LOT to the way the guitar sounds. a lot of the thickness you hear is probably coming from the bass.

hope this helps.

 

[Boomersrec]

Love that sound...

Mistral you are absolutly correct. Gain is the trick for this guy and his sound also sounds like the mic is to far from the sound source. DO NOT record with the mic placed directly in front of the hole of the Guitar, place it on the high end of the neck about 1-2 inches.
Sounds workable...

daniel
Boomers Recording and Karaoke Studio
Portland ,OR