Can you help in guitar mixing?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Aviel
  • Start date Start date
chessrock said:
Aw.

Two bedroom shredder engineers arguing over who can get a more killer heavy guitar tone.

How cute. :D

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Hey now I'm a bit beyond the bedroom. I've got about 900 sqft. dedicated to studio space now and I'm about to increase that by another 500. Besides, you're a bitch. :D
 
jonnyc said:
I don't write off everything you say. You seem more informed than most but you also seem to want him to record guitar just your way. I'm just trying to get him closer to what he wants, but we're both basically doing the same thing. You also need to consider that his amp may be less than stellar and maybe can't get the tone you're talking about.
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Not just my way, maybe we have different ideas of how he can achieve that sound though.. I've used some pretty cheap amps.. and I still think it would sound better with a *tad* more gain.. again, maybe even the settings on his guitar could be the defining difference. I'm just trying to give him a list of things that could help his sound.. your reply in effect said "don't listen to any of it".. of course I would take offense to that. Anyway, cheerio and all that.
 
Hey Guys,

I have a little trouble getting distorted guitars to sound good in my recordings too. After reading the above posts, it seems that some are suggesting not to use pedals in the chain for distortion, and to use plug-ins after? I can't find any good distortion plug-ins. Then again I don't have cash to spend big on them either. I find using the pedals gets me a way better sound than plug-ins (for distortion anyway)
Any comments.

UTSMAN
 
utsman said:
Hey Guys,

I have a little trouble getting distorted guitars to sound good in my recordings too. After reading the above posts, it seems that some are suggesting not to use pedals in the chain for distortion, and to use plug-ins after? I can't find any good distortion plug-ins. Then again I don't have cash to spend big on them either. I find using the pedals gets me a way better sound than plug-ins (for distortion anyway)
Any comments.

UTSMAN
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I didn't see anyone mention using distortion plug ins. Those are worse than pedals. I was suggesting the amps distortion. You could use a pedal if you want you just can't overdue it when you use it to record and most people don't get that. Just try your amp's distortion, in fact what type of amp is it.
 
Well thanks you all for your willing to help thats first!!
Of course i wouldn't like to go into this argue, basiclly because i dont have much knowledge in this buisness.

First of all both of your mixes sounds really good, i would say thats the sound i would wish to get, and i hope that its possible.
but what i still notice in those mixes is that the guitar is not on too high volume, but somehow it still got a big place in the mix, also its not fill of highs, its even really "midi" but it sounds good on the mix- if i try to remove the highs from my dist, it justs sink down in the mix, and the mix become very mood, and bassy, with no air.
Also your guitar is really clean, i mean distored, but its isnt dirty, its really smooth, i really hope that with this amp i would be able to get that sound.

about how i recorded, i did this on bridge pickup, with all knobs (volume, tones) set to max on the guitar.
on the amp i have a chose of Gain, contour, bass, treble and unfortunately no middle, the gain though on this record was on 3/4 way up, less then that it sounded overdrived, but mostly clean. bass was about 1/4, treble at 1/2 way up and countour on 3/4 way up.

So basiclly what is left to try? layer recording, and on another try more gain? i still feel that my sound lacks "deepness" which i could hear clearly on the dont look back mix (the guitar level was higher- i could hear clearly what my guitar sounds lack).
Also shall i try again the combo of dynamic and condenser?

Thank you Very much, :)
Aviel

P.S- i guess that some of the problem about the guitars position in the mix should be with my mixing / mastering technique.
On one hand- it seems that i get the guitars on too high levels, but on the other hand, when reducing them- they just disapper.
 
Aviel said:
Well thanks you all for your willing to help thats first!!
Of course i wouldn't like to go into this argue, basiclly because i dont have much knowledge in this buisness.

First of all both of your mixes sounds really good, i would say thats the sound i would wish to get, and i hope that its possible.
but what i still notice in those mixes is that the guitar is not on too high volume, but somehow it still got a big place in the mix, also its not fill of highs, its even really "midi" but it sounds good on the mix- if i try to remove the highs from my dist, it justs sink down in the mix, and the mix become very mood, and bassy, with no air.
Also your guitar is really clean, i mean distored, but its isnt dirty, its really smooth, i really hope that with this amp i would be able to get that sound.

about how i recorded, i did this on bridge pickup, with all knobs (volume, tones) set to max on the guitar.
on the amp i have a chose of Gain, contour, bass, treble and unfortunately no middle, the gain though on this record was on 3/4 way up, less then that it sounded overdrived, but mostly clean. bass was about 1/4, treble at 1/2 way up and countour on 3/4 way up.

So basiclly what is left to try? layer recording, and on another try more gain? i still feel that my sound lacks "deepness" which i could hear clearly on the dont look back mix (the guitar level was higher- i could hear clearly what my guitar sounds lack).
Also shall i try again the combo of dynamic and condenser?

Thank you Very much, :)
Aviel

P.S- i guess that some of the problem about the guitars position in the mix should be with my mixing / mastering technique.
On one hand- it seems that i get the guitars on too high levels, but on the other hand, when reducing them- they just disapper.
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Well the guitar sound from the clip I showed you was a Gibson Lespaul Studio into a mesa boogie dc3. It's my opinion that getting a great guitar sound is also dependent upon the type of amp used. A good tube amp IMO will give you a much nicer distortion sound than solid state amps.
 
I don't think they were talking about plugin distortion. I'm pretty sure they meant just use distortion from the amp.
 
yes tube amps give a fuller sound and sit better in the mix than solid state amps or any amp modellers. I couldn't hear your clip becasue for some reason realplayer would not play it. Did you only do one take? It's going to take a few takes to get closer to the sound on the clips johnnyc and minstral posted. But still with a crappy amp you are going to have a hard time getting a good sound. Just read what jonnyc said about what equipment was used for his recording. And im sure every band you listen to that you like the sound of, use high end gear.
 
Perhaps it might surprise you then that all my guitars were recorded using

a. A Behringer V-Amp (hardware amp modeler)
b. Line-6 POD (same)
c. Software amp modeling plugins

In only one song was there any real amp (Marshall JCM 800 / 4x12).. doubt you'd ever figure out which song, but you're welcome to try.

In conclusion, I believe you really can't dismiss any method as inferior anymore.. it comes down to the hands it is put in. If you can't get a good tone from that amp, I highly recommend NI Guitar Rig 2.. you'll need a sound card which is capable of very low latency (5-20 ms) using ASIO drivers to use it, but otherwise I believe you can get a perfectly good sound with it.. definitely better than what you've got. As a matter of fact I will post an example using only guitar rig in a minute... nowhere near my final mix quality but it'll do.
 
So here's a sample of guitar rig.. maybe my choice of tones might not be to your taste but imo it's hard to argue it can produce some pretty damn realistic amp tone.

 
I don't know, I can pick an amp modeler or software out a mile away. It just always has some kind of hollow tone to it that I don't like. I mean the tones are usable but still nothing like a real tube amp. But that's an arguement that's been gone over several times. I hadn't even heard your first clip or even knew you posted one, I'll have to go check it out.
 
My Bad Jonnyc,

I'm glad we agree that distortion plug-ins are trash. My amp is a Marshall valvestate - 65watts. How do these rate? I know little about amps. Probably doesn't help that I am using a Shure 58 mic to record my guitar either, if I only I could afford a 57. The thing I find though is recording clean guitars always sounds pretty much like it does from your amp, but distortion is hard. It always ends up sounding fuzzy or compressed (without me compressing it). I might take on board some of the tips mentioned above and see how I go.

UTSMAN
 
OK, i tried my best mic placments, using amps dist, and sometime a bit of crunch in the pedal, that what i could get, but i am still very not satisfied.
this was recorded with Dynamic+condenser, and has 3 layers, each with some differant settings.

Do you find in it any improvment?
http://firstva.xoompages.com/layered.zip
 
Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that you will get a good sound from either your amp or your effects board. The sound from the source will probably be the biggest influence with regards to sound on your recorded material. You should concentrate your efforts on doing some serious research in that area before laying down any more cash.
 
utsman said:
My Bad Jonnyc,

I'm glad we agree that distortion plug-ins are trash. My amp is a Marshall valvestate - 65watts. How do these rate? I know little about amps. Probably doesn't help that I am using a Shure 58 mic to record my guitar either, if I only I could afford a 57. The thing I find though is recording clean guitars always sounds pretty much like it does from your amp, but distortion is hard. It always ends up sounding fuzzy or compressed (without me compressing it). I might take on board some of the tips mentioned above and see how I go.

UTSMAN
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Valvestates are pretty much solid state amps and sound almost identical but still usable. Now about your sm58, all you need to do is just unscrew the ball from the mic and put that in front of your speaker, very carefully. Or you can just jam that ball right up in there on the grill. Either way sm57's and sm58's are nearly identical in sound. Ok so you talk about how distortion sounds compressed....it is. That's how a distortion sound gets it's sound. That's why IMO you don't really need compression on a distorted guitar track.
 
Unless I missed it somewhere, don't you guys think you should find out what kind of sound he is going after before you start fighting over which of your ways to get it is more right?

'cause no offense to Johnnyc, but there is a world of difference between getting a tone like the clip he posted, and a heavier, beefy, metal tone...

Whithout knowing what he is trying to get, how can you possibly help him get it?
 
I'm gonna sorta go against some people and with some other people...If a person cannot get a good sound with the amp and mics they have, then a modeler can really help the person get a usable sound. I also am not really fond of the modeler sound most of the time, so I prefer recording a nice tube amp; but this is not always possible.
I have recorded an OK sound with the early Marshall Valvestate, but the last couple series sounded more as poo. Irritating distortion. Beware the contour knob -- might as well call it the "hide guitar in the mix" knob. It will remove your midrange meatchunk if you are not careful.

Your last clip was not too bad, Aviel. Sounds about like I imagine that amp sounding. Much better than the 2-mic phase nightmare of your first clip. Still kind of thin.... But if that is not the tone you are looking for, then I guess it is bad. What kind of sound are you looking for anyway?

I would try just a dynamic mic right in front of the center of your speaker (like an inch or three back) with the end of the mic aiming more at the cone of the speaker than the center dome. The very center is where the fizz is (especially on solid state distorted amps) and the cone is where the meat is. Forget about the condensor for a sec.
 
amra said:
Unless I missed it somewhere, don't you guys think you should find out what kind of sound he is going after before you start fighting over which of your ways to get it is more right?

'cause no offense to Johnnyc, but there is a world of difference between getting a tone like the clip he posted, and a heavier, beefy, metal tone...

Whithout knowing what he is trying to get, how can you possibly help him get it?
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Actually we've kind of attempted to find out what he's going for but by listening to his tracks I kind of got an idea of what he wanted. Did you listen to my entire clip by the way? There is a small snip where the guitars get pretty heavy with a nice little lead part thrown in. I was suggesting turning the distortion down because it seemed to sound like shit turned up. Not to mention he thought it sounded better after turning the distortion down. Oh and BTW I've had no problems getting a good metal tone it's really not a "world of difference" like you've stated, just a little more tweaking.
 
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