Bad news for Neumann, Shure, AKG etc...!

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<M149 and I had to pay some $450 for the small card where the tube is soldered upon together with a couple of caps and resistors.
Should be cheap, I love that!>

Han, by no means I am trying to disappoint you, but I just checked the prices in Antique Supply catalog. The 6111 is listed for $6.75 a piece.
That's a capitalism! Reminds me--friend of mine got his alternator replaced in Nissan Altima 1996. He had to pay $630 (!)
 
Yeah, don't tell me. "the tube isn't cheap sir", I thought about some $100 maybe. It turned out to be some $450 at the Sennheiser repair service.

I said, why so expensive, an EL34 goes for $12. The man says: well sir go ahead and buy 100 of 6111's and find out which one is the best, 'cause that's what we do.

Next time the tube dies, I will buy a couple of tubes myself and put one in. In case it's a tad more noisy, so be it.

Cars huh? you can find almost any alternator at the scrapyard for $20 here.
 
BTW, you know what's the biggest joke? The broken tube (it's very noisy) has a printing on it "Holland".

H O L L A N D, for cryin' out loud, is where I live!:D
 
Han said:
BTW, you know what's the biggest joke? The broken tube (it's very noisy) has a printing on it "Holland".

H O L L A N D, for cryin' out loud, is where I live!:D
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It is probably Amperex.

Yeah, I used to live in Harlem for half of year.
 
So you can speak some Dutch I suppose?

I'm going to Haarlem saturday, nice town.
 
Thanks for the info on the quote thing! :)

Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with you folks on the analogies. I was trying to make a point, nothing more. Simply put, there is as much in common with VCRs as with art. I can further the analogy but that's not the real issue. My issues were and are more marketing related. You asked why and I gave a number of valid reasons for the disparity. I don't don't argue about the shortcomings of a given analogy, they all have them.

As far as the sound goes, I think that you are dealing more with levels of ability to discern differences than anything else. In other words, the average homerecordist won't find the differences among Nuemanns that you will find among Oktavias. As for matching, I have to agree, I failed to address that. If I go out and buy 100 1% tolerant resistors, no two will be exactly the same. Multiply this problem by the number of components in the circuit and it will produce differences. This cannot be avoided. (I have run into this when I produced prototypes of radios locally. I may be new to recording but I have a long background in radio so please pardon the references). In radio, these differences are compensated for quite easily but with something as sensitive as the human ear, this is quite a different prospect.

Earlier, Marik mentioned that some violins are sold, used for over a million dollars. I suppose one could asy that someone has raised a mere pile of wood and cat gut to high art. This was what I was saying earlier about the mics. There is a perception, real or imagined that certain mics, due to whatever factors have been raised to that level. I'm not defending it, I'm merely pointing it out. Whether or not we like the situation is irrelevant. Thta it exists is what is important.

The house analogy is interesting too but ther are soooo many factors that go into this I will simply quote the old realtor's adage: "There are three things you need to know in choosing a house: Location, location, location!". The same cannot be said for mics, art or VCRs. :D

Regards, Steve
 
Steve, I still think a microphone is just a tool and Marik is right, a microphone is not very complicated, nor is it a work of art.

What about paying more than $400 for a tube that actually costs $6.75? is that snobbish or a bad joke? you won't hear me complain, I don't have to pay this private, my company does, but it still sucks.

I'd rather 'waste' my money to a poor hungry family instead of Neumann :D
 
Rev E said:

Are you sure you didn't mean "trademarks" rather than "patents"?
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There is a form of patent called a "design patent" which covers the external, visible appearance of a product. It need claim nothing but novelty.


Bob
 
Steve,

I think we disagree because we are talking about different things. Your points about marketing are absolutely valid and right. I was talking from standpoint of manufacturing. I made quite a few mics from scratch including ribbons, electrets, LD, SD, tube, SS, hybrids etc. and more or less know what's going on under the hood. But I would never be able to make a VCR (although many years ago I made cassete and reel-to-reel tape recorders--both from sratch, including transport). So that's why I brought this VCR analogy.

On the other hand, designing and creating a mic in a sense is also an art. Most of us know Stephen Paul's work (or art)--but com'on, even his mic with all unique switches, super thin diaphragm, hand-made in US etc. is under $2k.
Yeah, I want to hear it...
 
Han said:
Steve, I still think a microphone is just a tool and Marik is right, a microphone is not very complicated, nor is it a work of art.

What about paying more than $400 for a tube that actually costs $6.75? is that snobbish or a bad joke? you won't hear me complain, I don't have to pay this private, my company does, but it still sucks.

I'd rather 'waste' my money to a poor hungry family instead of Neumann :D
Click to expand...

Han, you get no arguement from me. I not only agree, I second the motion. You misunderstood my post though. The arguements I made were not necessarily how I feel it should be but rather how it is. Neither you nor anybody else has changed my mind. On the contrary, you have tacitly agreed with me. You have pointed out, very logically, how it should be and why the way it is, is wrong. You're right, there is no reason why a tube that can be had for $6.75 should cost $400 at the consumer level but there is one thing I didn't mention and that is paying what the traffic will bear. If a segment of the publeic doesn't pay attention to the real value of something, for whatever reason, then they will pay the going rate.

Case in point. I found it cheaper today to purchase a brand new fender for my daughter's car than to by a used one through the junk yards. No joke! It was 1/2 the price! Had I not been alerted to the availability of new parts at a reasonable cast, I would have gladly paid too much through my own ignorance. The tube situation is much the same. You can say that the manufacturer is "praying" on an unsuspecting public and you will get no arguement from me. My point was that you and I discussing it won't change it, unfortunately.

Regards, Steve
 
Marik said:
Steve,

I think we disagree because we are talking about different things. Your points about marketing are absolutely valid and right. I was talking from standpoint of manufacturing. I made quite a few mics from scratch including ribbons, electrets, LD, SD, tube, SS, hybrids etc. and more or less know what's going on under the hood. But I would never be able to make a VCR (although many years ago I made cassete and reel-to-reel tape recorders--both from sratch, including transport). So that's why I brought this VCR analogy.

On the other hand, designing and creating a mic in a sense is also an art. Most of us know Stephen Paul's work (or art)--but com'on, even his mic with all unique switches, super thin diaphragm, hand-made in US etc. is under $2k.
Yeah, I want to hear it...
Click to expand...


Marik, as I pointed out to Han, we really doesn't disagree, we are merely talking at cross-purposes (I read that one in an Agatha Christie novel). We are jsut talking about two different parts of the whole.

How about this for an analogy. I make and sell custom designed, hand-built furniture. My workmanship is as good as anybodies and my designs are unique. I cannot, however, charge even 1/4 as much as factory built furniture from certain "designer" houses. Talk about unfair! (true story btw!)

This has been fun. I 've enjoyed it immensly. I have to go though. I will be back tomorrow.

Regards, Steve :)
 
I'm glad this thread has turned into a good discussion now.

I do think mic prices are wrong, but the same can be said of most music gear. I used to say I'd never buy an expensive guitar and would make do with what I could find for £300, but I realised soon after that that meant I would never have a really nice acoustic this way. So can the situation ever change?
 
Neumann pinboard:

Posted by Han (beaufortstudio@hotmail.com) on March 31, 2004

Hi all

A couple of years back my M149 started to be quite noisy. It turned out to be the 6111 tube and after it got replaced by a new one, the mic sounded like new.

I had to pay the bill which was about some $400.

Today an engineer told me the 6111 tube is listed for $6.75
I'm aware of the fact that Neumann uses the best tube out of many, but is that a fair price?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:

Posted by M. Schneider / Neumann (schneidm@neumann.com) on March 31, 2004

In Reply to: M149 tube posted by Han on March 31, 2004:

Dear Han,

while I'm not the one calculating end prices, there's some things I can say.

- True, you can get a 6111 for a few US$. These are all from those manufacturers we found completely unsuitable for microphone applications, after having test bunches of 100 pcs each.
- In the end, there is only one type we use in the M149, and the price we have to pay for it is markedly higher, especially as the suppliers know that stocks aren't unlimited.
- The tube has to be pre-selected, even with this manufacturer.
- I presume you have a very early M149, which were still fitted with 8254 tubes. In this case, definitely the whole tube module has to be replaced when switching to over to the 6111.

I hope these explanations help...

Best regards,
Martin Schneider
Neumann Mic. Development
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My response:

Posted by Han (beaufortstudio@hotmail.com) on March 31, 2004

In Reply to: M149 tube posted by M. Schneider / Neumann on March 31, 2004:

Thanks, the mic is an exellent mic, no doubt about it and indeed it's an early M149. I've bought it new in sept. 1996

The tube got very noisy after some two and a halve years and indeed the small card where the tube is soldered on got replaced.

I still have the old module and the type of the tube is probably on a place I can't see. I can see AMPEREX and HOLLAND, which is funny 'cause it seems the tubes are made some 60 miles from where I live.

I still think the replacement was very and much too expensive.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm puzzled and curious.
 
Han said:
It turned out to be some $450 at the Sennheiser repair service.
Click to expand...
I keep hearing the word "Sennheiser" coming up with the words "over priced" and "lousy customer service", all too often.

So often, that I was considering the E845 series for my vocal mics, but have since backed off. Audix and Shure offer MUCH more user-friendly service and repair charges.

As for the 3D patent/trademark question above: that is lawyer talk, and I'm not a lawyer, nor do I profess to be one. Splitting semantical hairs is nothing I'm interested in.

IMO, Neumann, et al, would have zero success trying to sue Chinese firms in a Chinese courtroom. The only alternative is suing them outside of China, and the 3D <insert semantic term here> is the basis for the suit.
 
hmmm ... hope my Sennheisers last then, I've not had any trouble with them yet but I fully expect them to be trickier to get bits for than SM58s, obviously. Thing is, if more people buy them the parts may become more readily available ... ?
 
So if you have a K-Mart shirt, Squier guitar, Jack in the Box food, and a cheap Chinese mic, will............. humm, never mind.
 
<A couple of years back my M149 started to be quite noisy. It turned out to be the 6111 tube and after it got replaced by a new one, the mic sounded like new.>

Hm, let's see.... considering that the mic is from 1996, in 2002 it was 6 years old. Specially preselected tube... IMHO the mic had to be OK at least untill 2016-2026. Shall we start talking about Neumann QC?

<The tube has to be pre-selected, even with this manufacturer.>

Some tube vendors will preselect for you a tube of certain brand up to your specifications for nominal (but modest) fee.
OK, Neumann gets bunch of 6111's, out of each hundred pieces selects lets say 10. Do you really believe they throw away the remained 90 tubes?

<I presume you have a very early M149, which were still fitted with 8254 tubes. In this case, definitely the whole tube module has to be replaced when switching to over to the 6111.>

In this case I would think something as 'recall' would be more appropriate.
You know, to me the whole this story kind of stinks.
Yeah, I know--fighting with wind mills...

<So if you have a K-Mart shirt, Squier guitar, Jack in the Box food, and a cheap Chinese mic, will............. humm, never mind.>

Open the thing, look for obvious defects--cold soldering, loose wires, loose ground. BTW, if it is SP brand--contact Alan--I got an idea that no questions asked.
 
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Actually the tube got noisy after some two and a half years, the mic has never left the studio and was treated like a baby.

Although it's a very good mic, I will not buy any Neumann again because IMO these mics are much too expensive, compared to other great mics like Soundelux and Langevin for example.

Like I said before, maybe in a couple of years the Chinese will be able to make a mic which is qualitywise as good as a Neumann.
Then the Sennheiser company will be facing difficult times.

Remember what happened with the American and European car industry when the customer found out that the Japanese cars had become better than what they were used to be, even better than many American and European cars.

I hope Sennheiser will change their attitude towards the customer in time, for the times they are a-changing!:D

I remember I had to pay some 950 Dutch guilders for the tube, which is something like $456-460. Ridiculous price or what?

There are U47's with the original VF14 tube and still working, more than 50 years old tubes!
 
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