Bad news for Neumann, Shure, AKG etc...!

[arcanemethods]

It's really too bad that some companies/people are tricking people into believing their cheap Chinese made crap is as good as the well made top name brand stuff.

I know from the deep technical knowledge base you have demonstrated here that you can explain why that isn't possible. Why, for example, that is so much more difficult than a hard disk drive or an integrated circuit or a computer mother board or a machine tool.


Bob

 

[DJL]

I know from the deep technical knowledge base you have demonstrated here that you can explain why that isn't possible. Why, for example, that is so much more difficult than a hard disk drive or an integrated circuit or a computer mother board or a machine tool.


Bob

Yeah, I somewhat remember that thread too... you know, where you pretty much asked the same question... but I think it was Alan, Harvey and someone else who answerd your mic related questions and posted some facts demonstrating some of the reasons why some cheaper budget mics are not built as good as top name brand mics, and not I.

For the record... I agree with Fletcher on the subject of cheap Chinese budget mics... http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=110251&highlight=Chinese

It's a fairly common universal problem with all the Chinese mics, not just the Studio Projects... in some worlds it's called "quality control"... or lack thereof

You wouldn't happen to have the link to the thread where Harvey, Alan and some others already discussed this subject and answered your question would you? Thanks

 

[arcanemethods]

You wouldn't happen to have the link to the thread where Harvey, Alan and some others already discussed this subject and answered your question would you? Thanks

No I don't but I do remember a lot of shuffling without any real answer as to what made a microphone so much a bigger problem to get right than a hard disk drive. That's because the answer is _nothing_. A microphone is about as simple a device as could be imagined. One fucking moving part and it doesn't even touch anything when it moves. A disk platter has to be every bit as smooth as the backplate of a mic and nearly all tolerances are as tight or tighter.

FWIW, backplate electrets eliminate the need for high backplate smoothness with no tradeoff of any kind in performance.

A whole lot of what is written about mics is smoke and mirrors. Getting the design right used to be pretty hard, although that is going the way speaker cabinet design did with the advent of the Thiele-Small analysis, but there is nothing at all intrinsically difficult about manufacturing them compared to an enormous number of other manufactured items. The magnetron in your microwave is probably harder. Hell, a moderately priced camera is much harder.

It could still be a long time before this is accepted because so many people of influence have spent so much money on them that they just don't want to believe it but time will tell.


Bob

 

[DJL]

I think you should find that link and reread it again... but thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[Marik]

<A microphone is about as simple a device as could be imagined. One fucking moving part and it doesn't even touch anything when it moves. A disk platter has to be every bit as smooth as the backplate of a mic and nearly all tolerances are as tight or tighter.>

Yep, I have always been wondering... What makes some of the mics to be worth of a car, or.... downpayment for a house...
Or what makes Dick Sequeirra ribbon mic, which consists of two magnets, two iron pole pieces, piece of aluminum foil, transformer and housing (and that's it!!!) worth $3.000.

 

[Sklathill]

If the market will support a product at that price point, sure, go for it. If it works, it works. I've got my cheap Chinese stuff and mid-range Japanese and Australian stuff...and they've got their high-end mics. If they want to keep on paying that for the expensive mics, then they'll remain expensive. That's capitalism for you, and honestly, I don't really mind that much...

 

[noisedude]

with mics, people are paying for a guarantee. if you could guarantee the 'right' (i.e. what consumers recognise from the radio) sound from a cheap mic then we would be closer to not needing the expensive ones. i'm quite happy to try cheap ones because i'm just a student pissing in the wind in his basement with his friends. but a studio engineer needs to know where to go time and time again.

 

[EleKtriKaz]

I'm jumping into this thread late, but Acorec makes a good point. Just because the people making the mics aren't musicians doesn't mean they don't know how to make mics, in fact that's probably a good thing. They're focused more on sound than music.

I had a chance to get to know Lloyd Baggs of L.R. Baggs Pickups. He let me demo one of his amazing new acoustic guitar pickups on my taylor. He told me that he didn't really know to play guitar, and when I handed him the guitar I found out that he really didn't know how to play, yet he makes great pickups and used to make great guitars. It's because he's totally focused on the sound.

 

[Han]

Yep, I have always been wondering... What makes some of the mics to be worth of a car, or.... downpayment for a house...
Or what makes Dick Sequeirra ribbon mic, which consists of two magnets, two iron pole pieces, piece of aluminum foil, transformer and housing (and that's it!!!) worth $3.000.

Why is a 1936 Martin D45 guitar worth $170.000? It's just a piece of wood with six strings innit?

 

[Marik]

<Why is a 1936 Martin D45 guitar worth $170.000? It's just a piece of wood with six strings innit?>

Oh no Han, I am not talking about collector items--some Stradivarius violins go for well over a million (and have less wood than Martin and only four strings ). I mean current production mics.
If people have money and desire to pay $10K for ELA reissue--that's fine with me. The point is that IMHO any even cheapest and crapiest VCR is much more complicated device than a stupid microphone and can be have for under $100.
Yep, wonders of capitalist market.

 

[Rev E]

... The major manufacturers are starting the 3D patent process now, and will sue the crap out of illegal Chinese clones that sell outside of China.

Probably mostly smoke and mirrors here. A patent could only be obtained on a "novel or new" process or method. The mics that are being cloned or copied are the older Elams, Akgs, and Neumanns of yesteryear. At the time those circuits were patented, patents lasted for 17 years after issue. Bottom line, those patents are already expired and are now part of the public domain, free to be copied by all. Any 3D patent would only be for future mics (mics that most of us agree that the big manufacturers aren't producing anything terribly innovative and thus worth buying). Any time a technology is available to the public for more than a year before a patent application is made, there can be no patent, as the technology is now considered "not novel."

Are you sure you didn't mean "trademarks" rather than "patents"?

 

[Han]

<Why is a 1936 Martin D45 guitar worth $170.000? It's just a piece of wood with six strings innit?>

Oh no Han, I am not talking about collector items--some Stradivarius violins go for well over a million (and have less wood than Martin and only four strings ). I mean current production mics.
If people have money and desire to pay $10K for ELA reissue--that's fine with me. The point is that IMHO any even cheapest and crapiest VCR is much more complicated device than a stupid microphone and can be have for under $100.
Yep, wonders of capitalist market.

Yo, I get the message! I too have a $+4k Neumann and to be honest, that's way too expensive.

It's a great mic, but many people won't hear the difference with a SP B1.

I had to buy a new tube a couple of years back, costs as much as 4 or 5 decent Chinese LDC's, one freakin' little mini tube!

Yep, you do have a point.

 

[Marik]

<one freakin' little mini tube!>

AC701? or VF14?

 

[Marik]

No, not VF14, otherwise you mic would be $+6k
So it is AC701

 

[guitarlover]

"The point is that IMHO any even cheapest and crapiest VCR is much more complicated device than a stupid microphone and can be have for under $100.
Yep, wonders of capitalist market."

(Question posted by Marik)

Sorry, I haven't figured out the quote thing.


There are actually several parts to your question that need to be addressed. First thing to realize though is that you are, to some extent, comparing apples and oranges. A better analogy might be to ask why one painting is worth $10.00 and the next, $10,000.00. They're both made with paint, aren't they?

1) the name factor is real. They better name can command more for its products. This is probably what you refer to and it's true with art as well.

2) economy of scale. I am willing to bet that for every Nuemann mic produced, ther are 10+ million. Therefore, manufacturing can be geared toward this kind of volume and still maintain a reasonable level of quality. Incidentally, the price drop of VCR's occurred for two reasons. The first are the Koreans and Chinese getting into the act. The second is the advancement of technology. Circuit City doesn't even sell VCR's any more unless they come as a combo with a DVD player.

3) consistancy of quality. You can pick up virtually any example of a particualr model of expensive mic and be assured that it will sound identical to any other example. This is their level of quality control. Just look at all the threads advising the potential buyer to try several of the same mic to find a "good" one.

4) there is a marketing principle called the marketing curve. This curve states a generallized price vs consumer acceptance (reading buying) trend for a given product of mass appeal. The problem with the Nuemanns of the world is that they a niche market, at best and will never fit this curve very well. It might be argued that the curve even works here due to the introduction of cheap imports but that simply isn't the case. Nuemann hasn't dropped their prices based on this competition and isn't likey to.

5) Another factor that takes mics out of the traditional marketing world is longevity. 30 year old good mics are still good mics. Some even increase in value based on a perceived level of quality or tone that doesn't exist today.

There are probably more arguements to your contention but I think I've made the point. My purpose is not to nuke you, by the way. I have seen this question in many contexts over the years, though and these marketing principles hold. BTW, I have my degree in business with a strong bend toward marketing (I'm sure you couldn't tell this from my post ).

Regards, Steve

PS If you have more questions regarding this, I'll be happy to answer them as best I can either here on feel free to email me directly.

 

[Han]

<one freakin' little mini tube!>

AC701? or VF14?

No, JAN 6111, which is a militairy tube and very small, much smaller than the ECC83

 

[Han]

Sorry, I haven't figured out the quote thing.

On the bottom of every post you will find a quote button.

Your analogy with pantings don't fly IMHO. A painting is a work of art, a microphone is a tool, no more no less.

A house is a pile of bricks with a roof upon it, yet the prices differ very, makes no sense either.

Wait untill the Chinese can make quality like the Germans, that will drop their prices or they won't survive.

 

[Marik]

<No, JAN 6111, which is a militairy tube and very small, much smaller than the ECC83>

So you have M147, M149, or M150.
6111 is a subminiature twin triode and should be quite cheap, even selected for low noise...

 

[Han]

M149 and I had to pay some $450 for the small card where the tube is soldered upon together with a couple of caps and resistors.

Should be cheap, I love that!

 

[Marik]

Steve, I agree with Han that painting is a completely different world.

<3) consistancy of quality. You can pick up virtually any example of a particualr model of expensive mic and be assured that it will sound identical to any other example. This is their level of quality control. Just look at all the threads advising the potential buyer to try several of the same mic to find a "good" one.>

Even two U47's will never sound the same. That's is the reason why most of manufacturers (at least respectable ones) offer mic matching (for a fee, BTW).