Are some drums just not tunable?

[ausrock]

They make there own shells and will work with you to give you want you want.

Of course, this will still only give you a set of drums that happen to work only with songs that are in the same key as this one song. If another instance like this comes up with a song that is in an incompatable key, you are right back where you started.

I guess I should have made it clear that I didn't mean they could work miracles but they would make a kit "to order" for Brian giving him a choice of timber types and sizes to suit his needs better than the Mapex. As you pointed out tuning to the pitch of a specific song is always going to be an issue.

 

[Farview]

I guess I should have made it clear that I didn't mean they could work miracles but they would make a kit "to order" for Brian giving him a choice of timber types and sizes to suit his needs better than the Mapex. As you pointed out tuning to the pitch of a specific song is always going to be an issue.

That's all I was trying to point out. I have a kit with 7 toms, and there are certain keys that I can't get more than two drums to work with.

 

[twsknight]

Maybe I'm just too unprofessional about my drumming endevors, but surely the kit doesn't need to be tuned to particular notes for the sake of the song. I'm not having a go, it's just I presumed you were tuning it to a particular note so that you get a good sounding tom, but reading through the post it seems that it's more for it to be in tune with the song???? Maybe i've misread it.

IMO, a drummer is there for rhythmic purposes, we're not playing a melody instrument, regardless of what Terry Bozzio does.

I apprciate you want to get the best sound possible, but if you can't tune it to the note, just make sure it sounds awesome. you can't possibly be getting any joy out of this mammoth task you've undertaken, and making music (for me) is one of the most fun things you can do.

Also, have you tried moongel/O-rings/electrical tape. Don't know if it'll help you get the note you want, but if you're purely recording, throw the rule book out the window, as long you get a good sound (without sampling) then do it.

I hope you get the sound you're looking for.

 

[RAMI]

Maybe I'm just too unprofessional about my drumming endevors, but surely the kit doesn't need to be tuned to particular notes for the sake of the song. .

I agree 100%. This thread is great entertainment, though.

 

[twsknight]

It's frustrates me that you have all these technically amazing musicians, be it guitar, drums, bass anything; and they play some of the most technically impressive and crazy shit on the most elaborate and expensive equipment you can find which allows the sales people to go "You want to sound like [X] then buy this piece of equipment, tune it to these notes or put it on these settings and you'll be able to sound like [x] too!"

You don't have to be the best musician, have the best equipment or even have the best recording equipment, if you right a good song it'll shine through all that overly technical stuff.

Give me a Beatles album over a Dave Weckl one anyday.

End of Rant and apologies to Brian for hijacking the thread to have a moan. I've got nothing against your musical endevours, just don't let it ruin your enjoyment.

 

[mikeh]

Now Brian did qualify that the reason for tuning to a specific pitch was to accomodate a song that is very much tom driven - so it is possible that in this song the role of the drum kit is indeed as much melodic as rythmic. I can appeciate his desire to achieve a melodic effect - although I don't think a set of Voyagers is the right kit for that purpose.

While the primary job of the drummer should be to keep the beat (dare I say....groove) - it is possible to approach the drum kit in a melodic way - while still keeping the beat (and you don't need a Bozzio kit to achieve that). Selective use of multiple toms, cymbals, bells, blocks, etc. can allow for a range of melodic hits while still filling the roll of groove keeper - although melodic does not equate to specific tuned pitch.

As previously discussed, every drum has an ideal tuning range that may not lend itself to actual pitch - however, within that range you can make drums sound "melodic".

Back in the 80's I became obsessed with trying to tune drums to the key of the song (when recording....not live) - At one point I had an 11 piece kit with 9 toms and crash/splash cymbals in almost every size from 6" up to 18". I experimented with concert toms. I even bought a book that mathmatically fomulated the dimensions of every conceivable cylinder shell size to calculate the ideal tuning range. I even took all the hardware off each drum to hear the actual pitch of the shell.

After all of that overly anal, intense effort - I came back to the fundamental knowledge most experinaced drummers have learned.......you tune each drum to it's ideal blend of tone and resonance, you then slightly tweak one or more drums so the kit sounds like one instrument........and then you hit the damn things.

 

[Steve Moser]

You're probably better off not trying to tune to a specific pitch. Even if you manage do actually get a definite note out of a drum, you're going to have to live with it until you retune it. Do you really want to go through all that hassle when the band decides to change the song key? No.

Most drums only suggest notes. I wouldn't labor the thought of getting them to exact pitches. I look for an indeterminate kind of sound, where the drums have pleasing intervals. Some drummers say they're tuning to fourths on the scale, some to fifths, etc. If you try to analyze the pitch of a two-headed drum with a tuner, you'll likely be there all day.

 

[_brian_]

I'd like to know why my ironic post was removed & my rep has taken a dive , rep points are gay anyway but why remove my post??!! I was pointing out that I'm having to spend money on a new snare & now it looks like I could do with a new set of drums & was just wondering when the spending will stop - if ever!! The funny part is there is no way I would be able afford the drum manufacturors I listed!! Some people on this forum really have to either grow up or lighten up!! I guess it's the same people that constantly bang on about searching the forum instead of repeating previousley asked questions, guys it's a forum not a database. Were all here to help each other & gossip, get a book from the library if your knowledge exceeds the general day to day postings & you don't want to help out.

Rant over... for now

 

[Greg_L]

What did you say?

 

[ausrock]

Brian,

Dragon is the only person able to remove posts, etc., and unless there was something particularly distasteful in it I can't imagine he'd bother to remove it...........kinda begs the question.....

What were the brands/manufacturers you mentioned?




BTW..Did you have a look at Highwoods site? Also, after just reading your snare thread I seriously suggest calling Gareth Heeley at H/wood and have a talk to him.

Chris

 

[_brian_]

Perhaps it was just a failed post then , my own net connection was down so I've been nipping down to the library to deal with emails etc, I was in a rush so mabye I just didn't post anything. I was just basically saying how far away from getting the drums I really would like I am, I think it's relatively easy getting "thee guitar", but a drumkit is another matter, shells, hardware, cymbals They're like expensive lego for adults!! I just mentioned how nice it would be to sit down to a dw kit or the like , but even then I wouldn't know what kit to save towards!! I've been playing guitar for nearly two decades so I guess I can trust my own ability to find a really good instrument relative to a budget, but drums are another matter

The idea I had about using another bassline to "substitute" for the pitched toms works ok, but It detracts from the song a little. At least I can get it down for now though!! It sounds a little like a cartoon version of what I was trying to achieve, the original just sounded damn sexy & sinister!!

 

[_brian_]

BTW..Did you have a look at Highwoods site? Also, after just reading your snare thread I seriously suggest calling Gareth Heeley at H/wood and have a talk to him.

Chris

Sorry for not getting back to you Chris, the site looks great but I think It'll be outwith my budget!! I'll have to get a new snare first, the mapex one sounds awfull & I'm currently trying to build a few diy bass traps, i thought mabye if I could get a bigger floor tom of ebay then perhaps I could pull this off and have more tonal options for the future, but I've been well educated by you lot - as usual and things seem to be more complicated. So I'll have to see if I can just deal with a standard pitched kit & be a little more... technically creative before I start buying even more stuff. I've bookmarked his site though, so I'm just keeping my options open.

 

[ausrock]

Brian,

I totally understand the problems of budgetary constraints............around here, spare dollars are harder to find than rocking horse shit .

Disregarding the Asian manufacturers, the vast majority of well known US drum makers use Keller shells and have done so for many years, except on their "budget" models which they source from Asia. The one exception is DW who some years ago invested a lot of time and research into developing their own shell manufacturing division and consequently broke away from Keller's shells. The point is that so many of the US brand names are using the same basic shells, they each have their own claims as to why their drums are different or better but you risk getting lost in the marketing hype.

This is why I suggested calling H/wood, as Gareth, through frustration with importing shells put a huge amount of time and effort into developing his own shells and from that experience would be able to advise you on what snare configuration, etc., may give you what you need. You want to save money.........talk to him about going the DIY route and just purchase the components from him, I think he's still doing that ......mate, you've got nothing to lose.

Chris

 

[_brian_]

"The point is that so many of the US brand names are using the same basic shells, they each have their own claims as to why their drums are different or better but you risk getting lost in the marketing hype."

That's unbelievable!! I thought it was bad enough trying to buy mics living in the fear of picking up a cheaply manufactured generic capsule.

 

[Farview]

"The point is that so many of the US brand names are using the same basic shells, they each have their own claims as to why their drums are different or better but you risk getting lost in the marketing hype."

That's unbelievable!! I thought it was bad enough trying to buy mics living in the fear of picking up a cheaply manufactured generic capsule.

That's just what happens not. Most guitars under $2000 are made by either Cort or Samick. It's been that way for a couple decades.

 

[jby529]

I haven't read through this whole thread so perhaps someone has mentioned this, but there's a great device called a Drumdial tuner that measures timpanic pressure to ensure a good tune. Learning the art with just a drum key is always best, because who wants to carry a Drumdial around with them everywhere, but still...it's a good little device if you're in the studio and are having some clashing overtones.

 

[_brian_]

"I haven't read through this whole thread so perhaps someone has mentioned this, but there's a great device called a Drumdial tuner that measures timpanic pressure to ensure a good tune. Learning the art with just a drum key is always best, because who wants to carry a Drumdial around with them everywhere, but still...it's a good little device if you're in the studio and are having some clashing overtones."

Does it measure and set the torque of the lugs or the displacement of the skin at certain points to ensure accurate tuning? If it's the torque of the lugs it would be useless with my mapex snare as some lugs are just naturally tighter than others without any hoop tension on them. I could see how a skin displacement system could work well, kind of like the same idea as measuring if a rubber belt is at the correct tension in a drive. I have however had a lot more success tuning with two drum keys instead of one. But I also imployed a little trick!! I positioned two slips of paper at points at where the snare side hoop was uneven between the bearing edge & the skin & it has actally allowed me to get a better tune. So the hoop is definatley to blame for some of my frustration. My toms are well tuned at the moment & I'm actually enjoying *playing* for once!!

Thanks guys!!

 

[Greg_L]

"I haven't read through this whole thread so perhaps someone has mentioned this, but there's a great device called a Drumdial tuner that measures timpanic pressure to ensure a good tune. Learning the art with just a drum key is always best, because who wants to carry a Drumdial around with them everywhere, but still...it's a good little device if you're in the studio and are having some clashing overtones."

Does it measure and set the torque of the lugs or the displacement of the skin at certain points to ensure accurate tuning? If it's the torque of the lugs it would be useless with my mapex snare as some lugs are just naturally tighter than others without any hoop tension on them. I could see how a skin displacement system could work well, kind of like the same idea as measuring if a rubber belt is at the correct tension in a drive. I have however had a lot more success tuning with two drum keys instead of one. But I also imployed a little trick!! I positioned two slips of paper at points at where the snare side hoop was uneven between the bearing edge & the skin & it has actally allowed me to get a better tune. So the hoop is definatley to blame for some of my frustration. My toms are well tuned at the moment & I'm actually enjoying *playing* for once!!

Thanks guys!!

Drum dials measure head tension.