"Anti-war" number

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The reason I won't bother to offer an entire list of US crimes abroad is that I could not do them justice. The people here who disagree with the fact that they exist would not believe me.

Instead I can only offer some reading material. As I mentioned before, Rogue State is a good one, by Noam Chomsky. This contains more current examples than the more outdated ones that are being disputed here. For those examples, I would suggest Lies My Teacher Told Me by James W. Loewen.

I'm not even sure I would call these things crimes, even though that's precisely what they are. Every empire has its transgressions against humanity. But this empire has the opportunity to change those realisties lie no other ever has. We do no disservice to our fallen soldiers by discussing them and acknowledging that our government often does not make the most humane decisions. We do them a disservice by NOT discussing...by not acknowledging the faults in our foreign policy. They will have died in vain if we do not continue to improve this country and this world.

Stickman, if you are still reading...I wanted to point out that you are misinformed on some topics. First of all, for the "proven" murder of 22 Vietnamese citizens:

March 29, 1971 - Lt. William Calley is found guilty of the murder of 22 My Lai civilians. He is sentenced to life imprisonment with hard labor, however, the sentence is later reduced to 20 years, then 10 years. Out of 16 military personnel charged with offenses concerning the My Lai massacre, only five were actually court-martialed, and only Calley was ever found guilty.

He ultimately served 3.5 years for the murder of 22 civilians and was the only one ever imprisoned.

You know absolutely nothing about Nicuragua. You are repeating the neat and clean description that Reagan offered Americans. Were you aware that the World Court and the UN ruled that America withdraw from the Nicuraguan conflict entirely and pay reparations (for the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians and destruction of their economy and infrastructure)? You probably weren't as the US ignored the ruling and didn't pay a dime. Did you know that the Reagan administration gave specfic instructions to the Contras to attack "soft targets" like hosptials and civilian resources?

Please...do not ignore the facts as the facts will remain. And we know now how dangerous it is to ignore the realities that our government allows to continue.
 
Music, Art, Facts, whatever....

Gentlemen,

This is a forum for listening to, and giving feedback on music, not political ideology.

Please keep up the entertaining yet misinformed confabulation, but do so in a calmer, composed manner. Name calling and arguing appeal to the baser part of our voyeuristic tendencies, much like boxing, but not one of these activities has a place in a civilized world.

Please state facts not inspired triviality. You make references to our expansionism into Hawaii but fail to understand that we were forced to move into 'The Ocean' to to slow down Japanese expansion southward. (why do you think we were adversarial with Japan in the first place).

Immigration anyone? Facts only please:
Since 1820 (this year is sited to dis-allow the natural European migration which started this fine Country of the USA ; a fresh starting point prior to the Civil War and after the War of 1812)(besides records prior to 1820 are sketchy due to fires and poor record keeping :) )

38.67% of all immigrants were received in the US from Europe.
15.7% of all immigrants were received in the US from Canada and Mexico, those nations with which we share borders!

12% of all immigrants were received in the US as Refugees or Asylees in the last five years alone.

11.31% of all immigrants were recieved in the US from Germany.
1,599,768 more immigrants have been received from Germany than the next highest country Mexico!

Italy, the UK and Ireland round out the top 5 list.

These numbers were culled from the INS and stand unimpeached.

The USA has the greatest GNP, and the greatest responsibilites for economic stability in the world. We loaned every European country immeasureable amounts of money and energy to rebuild after WWII. Most countries are not even making interest payments on these monies, and yes We use that against them. In order to stabilize the world economy We remained on the gold standard until 1972, (officially 1968) nearly bankrupting our gold supplies to allow developing countries to insert and stabilize their currencies in the global economy.

The point I'm trying to make; that as the largest supplier and consumer of the world's resources we do our best to do what every government is in the business of doing, giving it's citizenry the opportunities to live without fear from foreign sovereignities as well as fellow nationals, earn their daily subsistance needs, and the time to persue philanthropic activities. (I just threw that last in) We do what we must based on the facts of the times, to insure our economic standing, just as every other country does. Switzerland hides behind its' "neutrality" yet allows criminals from other countries to bank at their facilities in anonymity, padding their own coiffers with monies gained from in some instances, less than moral and ethical means. Magnamonious stance in world politics?? Hardly, more the economic realities of being the global fence. (slang for a person or entity that receives stolen properties to gain from the resale or mortgage thereof). Banking is the single largest piece of the Swiss GNP.

So please don't argue. The US is a great place to live, and although we aren't perfect Europe's distaste for us is based on the strong arming we do in world economics. But this must be taken in context of the world economy and what responsibility is shared with whom. The EU is coming, and is supported by the US of A!!! (check who is footing the bill for many of their services based in Brussels) Maybe the new tender will become the standard currency and we can hate them for awhile.

We supported the Northern Alliance as freedom fighters, after the liberation the Taliban splintered from the Alliance and wrested control of the country. We do not support the Taliban, and since we no longer run 'hit squads' when we could muster support to be rid of them, "poof you are gone!!". (Let me insert here that with US support the Northern Alliance was still battling the Taliban for control, and oddly enough, what a coincidence, their leader was assasinated just weeks before 9/11. Al Qaeda knew what our response would be and took steps to put the Alliance in disarray prior to taking action against us.) Is the world a better place because of this? I for one believe it is so. Do I condone the killing? Not at all, but I am very conflicted as to how we control such radical ideology without armed conflict. (We could of course withdraw from the world, since we are the only country on earth that is capable of being completely self sufficient, food, water, resources including oil etc...) Although the US gets the bad rap for ousting such tyrannical organizations, Europe will reap benefits also. And many of our military conflicts in the last century were begun with a request for help from countries around the world, ie..France-Vietnam, Saudi Arabia (not even an ally)- Desert Storm, South Korea, Phillipines, Japan - Korea, to name a few.


(Whew)

If you are still reading this I apologize and get a life! The song that started this whole thing is IMHO the most useful form of the art. A chance to express opposing opinion in a non-threatening and understandable venue. It is a jangly, catchy, fun sort of protest (Country Joe, remember him?) which belies the seriousness of the underlying message. Well done and good onya'!.

Now let's get back to the music, (since I've had my say)

God Bless Us All, Each and Everyone!

America, Love It or CHANGE IT!!! (we ain't perfected yet!)

Peace,

Tim
 
Well said!!!

I am old enough to remember Country Joe and the Fish.
 
Damn Tim! Nice post.

Everything I wished I could have said in an eloquent manner.
 
yes...TTryon...we ain't perfect yet. So let's not get angry when people point out why.

And your best point...this discussion is out of place.
 
Music, Art, Facts, whatever....

Gentlemen,

This is a forum for listening to, and giving feedback on music, not political ideology.

Please keep up the entertaining yet misinformed confabulation, but do so in a calmer, composed manner. Name calling and arguing appeal to the baser part of our voyeuristic tendencies, much like boxing, but not one of these activities has a place in a civilized world.

Please state facts not inspired triviality. You make references to our expansionism into Hawaii but fail to understand that we were forced to move into 'The Ocean' to to slow down Japanese expansion southward. (why do you think we were adversarial with Japan in the first place).

Immigration anyone? Facts only please:
Since 1820 (this year is sited to dis-allow the natural European migration which started this fine Country of the USA ; a fresh starting point prior to the Civil War and after the War of 1812)(besides records prior to 1820 are sketchy due to fires and poor record keeping :) )

38.67% of all immigrants were received in the US from Europe.
15.7% of all immigrants were received in the US from Canada and Mexico, those nations with which we share borders!

12% of all immigrants were received in the US as Refugees or Asylees in the last five years alone.

11.31% of all immigrants were recieved in the US from Germany.
1,599,768 more immigrants have been received from Germany than the next highest country Mexico!

Italy, the UK and Ireland round out the top 5 list.

These numbers were culled from the INS and stand unimpeached.

The USA has the greatest GNP, and the greatest responsibilites for economic stability in the world. We loaned every European country immeasureable amounts of money and energy to rebuild after WWII. Most countries are not even making interest payments on these monies, and yes We use that against them. In order to stabilize the world economy We remained on the gold standard until 1972, (officially 1968) nearly bankrupting our gold supplies to allow developing countries to insert and stabilize their currencies in the global economy.

The point I'm trying to make; that as the largest supplier and consumer of the world's resources we do our best to do what every government is in the business of doing, giving it's citizenry the opportunities to live without fear from foreign sovereignities as well as fellow nationals, earn their daily subsistance needs, and the time to persue philanthropic activities. (I just threw that last in) We do what we must based on the facts of the times, to insure our economic standing, just as every other country does. Switzerland hides behind its' "neutrality" yet allows criminals from other countries to bank at their facilities in anonymity, padding their own coiffers with monies gained from in some instances, less than moral and ethical means. Magnamonious stance in world politics?? Hardly, more the economic realities of being the global fence. (slang for a person or entity that receives stolen properties to gain from the resale or mortgage thereof). Banking is the single largest piece of the Swiss GNP.

So please don't argue. The US is a great place to live, and although we aren't perfect Europe's distaste for us is based on the strong arming we do in world economics. But this must be taken in context of the world economy and what responsibility is shared with whom. The EU is coming, and is supported by the US of A!!! (check who is footing the bill for many of their services based in Brussels) Maybe the new tender will become the standard currency and we can hate them for awhile.

We supported the Northern Alliance as freedom fighters, after the liberation the Taliban splintered from the Alliance and wrested control of the country. We do not support the Taliban, and since we no longer run 'hit squads' when we could muster support to be rid of them, "poof you are gone!!". (Let me insert here that with US support the Northern Alliance was still battling the Taliban for control, and oddly enough, what a coincidence, their leader was assasinated just weeks before 9/11. Al Qaeda knew what our response would be and took steps to put the Alliance in disarray prior to taking action against us.) Is the world a better place because of this? I for one believe it is so. Do I condone the killing? Not at all, but I am very conflicted as to how we control such radical ideology without armed conflict. (We could of course withdraw from the world, since we are the only country on earth that is capable of being completely self sufficient, food, water, resources including oil etc...) Although the US gets the bad rap for ousting such tyrannical organizations, Europe will reap benefits also. And many of our military conflicts in the last century were begun with a request for help from countries around the world, ie..France-Vietnam, Saudi Arabia (not even an ally)- Desert Storm, South Korea, Phillipines, Japan - Korea, to name a few.


(Whew)

If you are still reading this I apologize and get a life! The song that started this whole thing is IMHO the most useful form of the art. A chance to express opposing opinion in a non-threatening and understandable venue. It is a jangly, catchy, fun sort of protest (Country Joe, remember him?) which belies the seriousness of the underlying message. Well done and good onya'!.

Now let's get back to the music, (since I've had my say)

God Bless Us All, Each and Everyone!

America, Love It or CHANGE IT!!! (we ain't perfected yet!)

Peace,

Tim
 
Chomsky! He's the mobius strip of logic.

Always finding an unerring way to twist the finger of blame to point at the US, no matter how convoluted.
 
Khompewtur said:
Chomsky! He's the mobius strip of logic.

Always finding an unerring way to twist the finger of blame to point at the US, no matter how convoluted.
Click to expand...

heh, yep! I remember reading a (what seemed to be) a never ending "essay" in Maximum Rocknroll about 10 or 12 years ago where he managed to personally blame Ronald Reagan for homelessness in the US and famine in Africa! I never was sure, but I guess ol Ronny Reagan was Darth Vadar!! :)
 
Re: Music, Art, Facts, whatever....

TTryon said:
Gentlemen,
... snipped...
Click to expand...

Tim, very well said, I applaud you and your ability to state the case clearly and plainly (so everyone can understand).

When folks try to spread their hate for the US, I always think of all the times we have been the first (and most times) only country to rush in (without asking questions, or setting terms) to help when a natural disaster strikes. When someone says how horrible the US is, I just think back to watching the firefighters rushing into the towers, only to be crushed and killed just trying to save someone (not asking what country they happen to be from).

You are right, the US isn't perfect and we have done a lot wrong, but so far no ONE, not a single person, organization, government or country has provided the world with a better alternative. The only alternative is violence... and that is no alternative.
 
I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but...

I printed out and read all of the posts last night. All I can say is that I wish "Pisces" were here in New York City on September 11th. If he was, maybe he would grasp the enormity of the attack. And maybe if he saw New Yorkers of all races and religions supporting each other in the aftermath of the attack, he would have a better grasp on the love most Americans have for their country and their fellow man.

And perhaps if Pisces had witnessed the hundreds of funerals for New York City Fireman and Policeman, who ran UP the stairs of the WTC while thousands were running down, well maybe then he would see what a brave country this is.

Does anyone have any doubt that the terrorists of September 11th would have detonated a nuclear bomb in New York City if they had been able to? Then what, Pisces? Should we sit back and take that, too?


Comparing Switzerland to the U.S. - in any way - is pretty absurd, don't you think? It's like comparing a good high school basketball player to Shaquille O'Neal. Boy, those Swiss really stopped Hitler in his tracks. Nothing wrong with Switzerland...but I think they occupy a different role in this world than we do.

And bringing up the fact that the U.S. and Britain bombed German cities sort of forgets the tiny little detail that the Germans bombed British cities, including London and Liverpool (where they almost killed a little kid named John Lennon).

Finally, when you mention that you don't see any Europeans flocking to America...well, I'm glad you slept through the last century. Someone else supplied the statistics on that. To say that a few Italians came here because Henry Ford promised them a better life...wow.

All four of my grandparents emigrated from Ireland with just the clothes on their backs. They left their country because there was a famine in Ireland, and they could actually survive in America. Here, they could get jobs (in this case, as house servants and subway workers) and eat. Their children (my parents) could go to school and pursue their dreams.

On the Statue of Liberty, it says, "Bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..." That's it, right there. For all of it's faults - which are very many indeed - America is STILL the land of the free.

Just take a minute to think of what this world would be like WITHOUT the United States, from WWI to the current time.

America is FAR from perfect, but it is more perfect than Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

A lot of our policies suck. Many of our political leaders suck. It's still the greatest country in the world.

Come to New York, Pisces, and visit the site of the World Trade Center. If you can't, please let me know what your solutions are after the "enemies of the West" crash a jumbo jet filled with fuel a mile from YOUR home.

And use your spell check once in awhile.

BobO - NYC, USA.
 
I am at the moment thinking up what to say

I am at the moment thinking up what to say in response to TTryon's post, since his post is of some substance other than emotion filled redoric, and personal shots at my ability to spell things and asumptions of where I was on the 11th of September.

This thread is not about, Firefighters, or funerals, and it sure as hell isn't about dead Beatles.
The words on the statue of Liberty are emotional patriotic jargon that make those that have a dramatic place in their heart, but in reality don't MEAN anything. Sort of like Pringles, "Once you pop, you can't stop." It is just a slogan. The Hatians turned away from our borders in their fatally over crowded, broken down rust bucket of a boat are certainly poor and are a living definiton of a huddled mass. But they must have just tried to enter the wrong port or something.

And the US being Shaquille O'Neal and Switzerland being a high school basketball player??? What is that? What twisted ESPN flashback poped that one in your head? Ya see, I was under the impression that this was a political discussion and not a discussion of ethics. Hopefully we all know the difference. The banking system of Switzerland first of all is doing exactly what companies like Microsoft, e-Magic, Fender, Gibson, you name it, are all trying to do. Do whatever it takes within the limits of the law, to come out on top. And... take a look. That is exactly what they are doing. The whole emotionally envolved spiel that you guys keep spilling out have no business in a conversation about banking or politics.

Make absolutely no mistake... I am not cold hearted. And I am a 6 foot 4" 260 pound guy... and I had to cry when I saw what had happened, and I still have a hole in my chest when I think about that damned day. The dead firefighters, police, inoscent people, they all still are so present in my mind. BUT, I can still leave that stuff at home (so to speak) when I come to the table for a political discussion about my government. Drop the "warm and fuzzy" and let's talk about what is really going on, and not slogans on French statues.
 
We're all entitled to our opinions. And I apologize for the "spell check" reference.

Good line ("ESPN") about the Shaquille O'Neal comparison. I guess what I was trying to say was that there probably wouldn't BE a Switzerland if America hadn't helped (with Russia, Britain, France, etc.) stop Hitler. Both my father and stepfather fought in Europe (my stepfather at Normandy).

Politics, like business, is messy. I'm sure that you yourself sometimes have to do business with people you may not like, and whose philosophies you may not agree with. I think we all know that there are many things wrong with America (greed, healthcare, promiscuity, etc.). And there are times when our behavior is quite shameful. But, in the end, it still beats any alternative I've heard of.

Finally, here's a thread I found from the Duke University library...just so you know that some people have a different perspective on all of those Swiss bankers....

http://www.lib.duke.edu/ias/guides/swiss.html

That's it for me. Going to stick to musical posts from now on, as I should! - BobO.
 
minusone...where the fuck do you get off saying anyone here is trying to spread hate for America? After reading through these posts I don't see anyone saying anything even remotely like that.

US policies are not perfect but the US as a dominant state is preferable to any other major empire in history. I couldn't agree more with this statement. These things are true and I never claimed anything contrary. But too many government practices abroad take advatage of these realities to push economic agendas at the cost of human lives and the creation of bitter bitter enemies. I'm tired of that.

I am in support of military action to bring the supporters of the 9/11 attacks to justice. I also know that this response has not been the surgical operation that was assured when the coalition was being formed. And there are a host of other shortcomings to American policies and actions to discuss, as wonderful a place as America is and as wonderful as a lot of Americans are.

You said it yourself...America is not perfect. But why do you want to ignore these mistakes and continue these deadly cycles of collateral civilian damage? Is just saying "Oh well, nobody's perfect," enough? Do you have no desire to know the truth and try to make it right or at least better?
 
Mercy...can't let this one go either pisces7378

<<The words on the statue of Liberty are emotional patriotic jargon that make those that have a dramatic place in their heart, but in reality don't MEAN anything.>>

What a lie. That's all that statement is, an ignorant (look the word up, I didn't just call you a name) lie. It means something to everyone who care about America and loves her. It means something to EVERY soldier, airman, seaman or marine that is laying their life on the line each and every day for us to have the right to freely argue without fear of reprisal. Ask the people that have swam thru shark-infested waters from Cuba if those words are all meaningless. Ask the soliders who lost their legs and arms in WW2 and Korea and Nam if its meaningless. Ask the soldiers suffering from Gulf Syndrome if it's meaningless as well.

Since you have yet to answer over 50 questions I and others have asked throughout this discussion I wish you would either answer them or shut up. Your rhetoric is based on feelings and absent of thought and usefulness. Time and time again, I and others have asked you for viable alternatives to American and foriegn policy. Instead of answering these questions, you have spouted meaningless and false rhetoric that sounds like it was read off the wall of a restroom in an Anti-American bar or shanty-town.

You claim to feel badly regarding 9/11. All I read here is the endless meanderings of someone who hates the USA and delights in slamming the GREATEST NATION on EARTH.

If you don't like what America does, get active and VOTE. Call your representitives and offer REAL solutions. If you are too lazy to do that, do us all a favor and stay in Germany or wherever you are. We don't need you.
 
"the endless meanderings of someone who hates the USA and delights in slamming the GREATEST NATION on EARTH."

Man where do you get that shit? That is worse that minusone's comment. I disagree with a lot of shit that you guys say and I don't hate any of you. So WTF?!?!?

The reason I disagree with some US policies is because I LOVE America...because I give a shit and would like it to reach it's potential as a world leader. If I hated America I would move to some Third World shithole and join some fanatic group like Johnny Dipshit Walker (who should be in Guantanemo Bay right now as far as I'm concerned...not getting a measly 10-15 in an American prison). And piesces would be in Munich for reasons other than his job.

Damn...you guys get so defensive that you don't listen.
 
Psst gritzy

I wasn't talking to you. You've offered some solutions and suggestions as opposed to dodging direct questions. You've offered facts to back up some of your points and I GREATLY respect that. I was never insulted by anything you have said. It's not about disagreeing with America and our government's policys.

<<Damn...you guys get so defensive that you don't listen>> I wasn't being defensive...I was being honest. Part of the problem these days is people in GENERAL feeling intimidated by someone who asserts themselves and their points of view with facts. A sad price thats been paid to honor Political Correctness and all it's hate-filled uselessness.

Pisces statement:<<The words on the statue of Liberty are emotional patriotic jargon that make those that have a dramatic place in their heart, but in reality don't MEAN anything>> Is an INSULTING lie to anyone who loves their country and to all who have fought and died for our freedom to sit on this BBS and bitch about whatever.

hehehe I don't get defensive, that's for small children and the team that doesn't have the ball.
 
What questions???

What question(s) have I not answered? What meaningless rhetoric have I spouted off???

Better foreign policy???

It is a bit difficult to sort out the garbage after Sept. 11th but here is what i would have done on Sept. 10th.
- Pulled troups out of Saudi Arabia that had no business there and sent them boys home to their wives.
- Closed all the military bases in Germany (where there are still 7 active bases) Italy (still 8) the UK, Spain, Portugal, Turkey, and the south pacific, and let them 'old world' Europeans protect their own interests. And again... sent those boys home to their wives.
- I would not have walked away from the anti-racism convention in South Africa.
- I would not have supported Israel.
- I would have dislodged Sadam Husane during the Gulf War and had him in jail for crimes against humanity before a WORLD court, and not a US court.
- I would have adopted the internatioanal promises to reduce polution that every single European Unuion Country adopted that the US never even agreed to hear the argument for.
- I would close the borders to the United States and only let those people in that can add something ot the society, sort of like Germay does. (Call em racists all ya want... how do you think they have bounced back from having the wall come down and having an overnight 45% unemployement rate, to being the largest economy in continental Europe?)
- I would put every fucking dollar the US had into development for a cheap realistic alternative to gasoline so that those pissy Arabs in the middle east would suddenly not be so damn important. Then there would be no millionaire terrorist hiding in caves, sitting on a fat sack of oil money.

my foreign policy is just this.... NO FOREIGN POLICY!!!! or at least as small as possible.

Peace
 
blegh!

I can't think of one of those ideas that I don't think is lousy.


p.s. i am 6'5" and i weight 261 lbs, i am going to kick ur ass
 
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Well

Cool for you man. Kick my ass. I guess that somehow that will bring some validity to your popints. Leave it to a small mind to come to violence. Especially on a freaking ONLINE MESSAGE BOARD. You don#t even know me.

''I'm gonna kick your ass.'' If you had a college professor, I am sure he is ashamed to see someone over the age of 12 right some garbage like that.

See ya at the zoo, Bubbles
 
oh sure, get all worried just because i am one inch taller and one pound heavier

;)
 
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