"Anti-war" number

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Here is what I do know about you...

- You were in the US Military
- You are extremely patriotic.
- You are from the South-Eastern United States
- You are educated (either formally or self) (I can see this by the way you go through and quote my previous messages verbatum)
- You play the guitar.
- You like music that is on the late 1960s country feel. (based on your >>>Well performed as well. Nice style of playing.<<< response to the MP3 we heard<<<
- Your views are most likely republican in nature.
- You probably own a gun or two and support the NRA.

... and the rest, as well as a few of th above, would only be speculation based on my experiences in the south eastern United States where I grew up and lived until last year. Now, I am heavily into individualism. Therefore I would never dare to even assume for one second that I really KNOW anything about you, or most anyon else for that matter, based on speculations and a few internet posts. But I do know that you are good enough with words and calm enough to carry out a descent conversation without saying garbage like "Pisces, Fuck You!," and "asshole" the way "Wide Awake" does. For that you have my respect. Your views are about 5,000 years old. But perhaps MY point of view is the wrong one. I am unfortunately certainly in the minority in my views. At least I am in the minority in the United States. The rest of the world is looking at America with quite a different set of eyes than the Americans. But you of course, as you said, don't care about what France (or anyone else) thinks of the US. So perhaps you are right. But let me just ask you a question. It is a question about retaliation.

If I hit you in the face, and then you hit me back in the face. That is retaliation. Correct? I don't think that anyone would argue that if you are hit in the face, you first response would be an overwhelming desire to hit that person back as hard as you can.

Now if you hit me in the face... and then I swing with all the power and might I can muster, and hit your SISTER right in the face. Is this retaliation? Or simple, and criminal misdirected agression?


The reason I bring this us, is because this is all that the US has done in Afghanastan. We have (mataphorically of course) punched Osama bin Laden's sister in the face. Some, a very small amount, of people have made a CRIMINAL attack against the people that were at work in the World Trade Center on the 11th of September. It was not a governmental act of war. Nor a reflection of the wants of the citizens of Afghanastan. I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no more than 50 people even knew that such an even would happen. I bet that the majority of the planing for this CRIMINAL act was done within the United States itself. This man was asked to leave his country and just because he decided to take up root in this already devistated country, we decide that we have to go to war with Afghanastan. I don't blame people for not realizing the magnitude of such a thing, because not many Americans (with the exception of those in Manhatten on 9-11) has ever had airplanes flying over their houses every day, either dropping huge bombs or on their way to go drop some somewhere else in your home land. I am sure that it is a feeling of utter terror that I could never even imagine. And not only that, but it lasts and lasts and lasts for months. So you have to leave your home and all your posessions) and WALK to another country, that isn't much better. Most of us can't imagine a few days without our Steinberg equiped PCs and electric guitars, and these guys are leaving their entire life behind. INOSCENT people. Having done NOTHING to us. NOTHING. Then most Americans pat themselves on the back and say... well we saved these poor people from the Taliban. People... that is NOT OUR JOB!!!!! We are not the policemen for the entire world! I would never in a million years, send my SON to a country that I had never heard of, just to save someone else from some ruler(s) that I have never heard of before. That whole, "spreading freedom and the American way through out the world to illiminate evil everywhere," is just a propoganda tacktic to rally public support. If the buildings had never come down in NY, then the Taliban would still be, and forever be, sitting comfortably where they were. And NO ONE EVEN KNEW WHO THEY WERE!!!! Until September 13th or so.

But now these people that had done nothing to us, are either dead from a bomb, dead because of starvation, dead because they were too old to make the trip to safety, or crowded in some refugee camp somewhere... While CNN films the 200 people or so that ARE left in Afghanastan playing a soccer match, looking all happy because the Taliban is gone.

Osama bin Laden is STILL out there. NO ONE has been brought to justice for the CRIMINAL act. The ones that are suspects and in custody were found in THE UNITED STATES and NOT in Afghanastan. This is a case of murder. Osama bin Laden and his associates are murderers. Not soldiers, not government agents.... CRINIMALS!!!! And so far all we have done is.... punch his damn sister in the face. And in the process made a whole lot of people hate the US that otherwise might not have.

God Bless America... we are going to need it.

Mike
 
I am not sure I follow you. What does your post mean Puter man?
 
I only have a few minutes till class so I wont be able to vent my views right now.

The liberal mindset of some people on this board is quite laughable.

If any of you want check out my Conservative commentary site http://www.voxpox.com

Ill be redesigning it soon but for now this is what I have.
Be sure to sign up as a member! :)
 
<<You were in the US Military>> Yes, I was.
<<You are extremely patriotic>> Yes, I am. Proud to be an American!
<<You are from the South-Eastern United States>> hmmm close...I was born and raisded in WVa.
<<You are educated (either formally or self) (I can see this by the way you go through and quote my previous messages verbatum)>> Yes I am.
<<You play the guitar>> And keyboards and bass and dable in a few other instruments as well

<<You like music that is on the late 1960s country feel>> Nope. I'm NOT a fan of country or any of the *new country* either. Hate it. I'm a rock n roller front-to-back PM me if you wish and I will send ya my web site addy and you can hear what I do.

<<Your views are most likely republican in nature>>When I was a teenager my veiws would have been considered Democratic. Now I dunno what they are in the political correct world. I'm a registered Democrat who would rather eat nails that become republican.

<<You probably own a gun or two and support the NRA>> Nope. Don't have a gun and I'm not a member of the NRA. I do support the right to keep and bear arms though and beleive guns never ever fire themseleves.

<<Your views are about 5,000 years old>> hmmm nope 226 yrs old for a few of them, but my personal veiws are only 40 years old. 41 this March.

<<Now if you hit me in the face... and then I swing with all the power and might I can muster, and hit your SISTER right in the face. Is this retaliation? Or simple, and criminal misdirected agression?>>

No, my sister would be stupid for standing too close to the fight in the 1st place. The intelligent thing would be for her to MOVE out of the way hehehe. If you have Al-Queada living next door to you...MOVE becuase we might hit your house by mistake. Though it appears our mistakes haven't been early as numerous as originally reported.

<<The reason I bring this us, is because this is all that the US has done in Afghanastan. We have (mataphorically of course) punched Osama bin Laden's sister in the face. Some, a very small amount, of people have made a CRIMINAL attack against the people that were at work in the World Trade Center on the 11th of September>>

Sorry, but if you look up the meaning of the word criminal, you will find it does in NO WAY account for what happened on September 11. An Act of War, however, describes it exactly. We have declared war on terrorism and all those who support it. Sadly, people die in war. Innocents as well as combatants. Just a sad sad fact. However, it does not invalidate what we are doing. While it is true civilians have been killed in the bombing, it is also true that we have been the largest provider of food and other aid to the Afghan people...bar none! War has been acurrately described as hell. However, the USA has proven time and again that if you are at war you have to DESTROY your enemy in order to win. We did it in WWI and WW2 and just imagine what hell we would all be living under if we hadn't. War sucks and I like nothing about it at all. However, you can't lock evil up and make it go away. You can only kill it. And that's just a sad reality of the world.

<<If the buildings had never come down in NY, then the Taliban would still be, and forever be, sitting comfortably where they were. And NO ONE EVEN KNEW WHO THEY WERE!!!! Until September 13th or so.>> I will agree with you that the Taliban were permitted to exist and under no circumstances was that EVER a good thing. Thanks to 9/11 we woke up. We now have leaders who have some moral backbone and hopefully NO government that treats their people the way the Taliban did for years will ever be permitted to torture and repress people the way they did. We were wrong to allow it to continue before 9/11. And we weren't the ONLY country that commited this same error.

<<And in the process made a whole lot of people hate the US that otherwise might not have.>>

Who hates us? Why do they hate us? What do they have to offer thats better than what we are doing? The ones that complain and claim they hate America never seem to have a better solution than the one they offer. I have yet to hear a single jihadi-type person explain to me what their point of veiw offers that is better than America. All I see and read in the European and Asian press is how terrible we are. There is never a desription of how we are terrible, or what we do that is terrible. Just that we are murdering, terrible people. Still, despite this, folks overseas would come here to live in a heartbeat.

So if you can't offer up a SOLUTION. Keep your hate to yourself, please:)
 
I am thinking we shouldn't let the threats of crazy terrorist cow us. Sure we make anger some but maybe they should be more concerned about us getting angry than vice-versa...

cuz dammit! I'm fighin mad!
 
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Wide Awake said:
Riku, pisces, fuck you
Click to expand...

I'm sorry...

and Yes I believe there is always a reason for things to happen...

By knowing those reasons you can maybe learn something and "dadaa" get something... it is called wisdom. If you know the reasons it doesn't mean that you are justifying those horrible acts. And yes there must be reasons why those guys hate your country so much and I think it's not Coca-Cola...

and please don't f*ck me again...
(and don't get affended)
 
The saga continues

>>>>>There is never a desription of how we are terrible, or what we do that is terrible. Just that we are murdering, terrible people. Still, despite this, folks overseas would come here to live in a heartbeat. <<<<<


Want a discription of how to do things as fas a foreign policy goes???

Go to: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html

This is simply a fact sheet for Switzerland. I will just point out a few of the highlights right here...

1. Environment - current issues: air pollution from vehicle emissions and open-air burning; acid rain; water pollution from increased use of agricultural fertilizers; loss of biodiversity
(Boy, I wonder what it feels like to live in a country where the biggest problems come from Agriculture and cars)

2. Life expectancy at birth: total population: 79.73 years
male: 76.85 years
female: 82.76 years (2001 est.)
(need I say more?)

3. HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate: 0.46% (Less than 1% Hmmmmmm not bad!)

4. Ethnic groups: German 65%, French 18%, Italian 10%, Romansch 1%, other 6% (And still has the lowest crime rate in Europe... in the US, we have only THREE major racial segments and we have race wars all the time)

5. Independence: 1 August 1291 (Founding of the Swiss Confederation) (This old dog has been around the block)

6. Political pressure groups and leaders: NA ("NA" means... there are none!!!! What about the US???)

7. Population below poverty line: NA% ("NA" means... I think you get the picture)

8. Unemployment rate: 1.9% (2000 est.) (So out of 100 people less than 2 are unemployeed.... boy oh boy... this just keeps getting better")

Anyway, you can go read the rest for yourself.
Do you know why Switzerland doesn't have planes crashing into buildings. Because of their brilliant foreign policy.... Whoops!!! I forgot... they don't have one. It isn't that no one has good ideas to offer you your so desired SOLUTION... you just don't pay attention. Switzerland has the idea that... we are how we are, and it is not up to us to go and force our way of government and way of life on the Americans. But Americans love to tell people how they should be. By the way... the website and information I have just provided is published by... none other than our Centeral Intellegence Agency. So I wouldn't question the authenticity of the data. PLEASE... I BEG YOU to find someway to shift things around as to how American is doing a better job that Switzerland with respect to foreign policy.

And with regards to what you said earlier about <<<<folks overseas would come here to live in a heartbeat. <<<<<.... you have a point. People from Haiti, Mexico, Cuba, Croatia, Ex-Yugoslavia, Bosnia, and much worse off countries are lining up to come to "the great west". But go do a little research on how man continental EUROPEANS applied for green cards in the US last year. And if you are even more interested... look to see how many industrialized countries in general had citizens apply for US citizenship. That whole "in a heartbeat" spiel is an American dream. That the whole world still thinks of the US and the promised land... maybe in 1902 during the height of the industrial revolution, Henry Ford, and General Electric through some really great marketing techniques, were able to convence a lot of Italians to move to New York, where the streets are paved in gold... little did these Italians know that they were actually going to be paving these roads themselves... and not from gold. But that idea has died through out Europe, except the undeveloped countries. Don't get me wrong. America will be for many decades more, quite the most sought after place to visit, live, and claim...
But just go ask your neighboring Australian or Norwegen what he thinks of American.... Ohhh damn, I forgot you probably won't be able to find an Australian or Norwegen living in your neighborhood. Wonder why?

"Keep my hate to myself"????? Dude, I don't even know you, how can I hate you? I just think that you see the world through some Americanized glasses that show you only what CNN broadcasts and you don't really dig much deeper than perhaps a couple of internet sites and a heafty dose of NBC nightly news. Whenever Tom Brokaw or your local newspaper is your main sorce for REAL news... then TRUST ME.... you are getting only a filtered down, pepped up, framed nugget of what is really going on.

Peace,

Mike
 
Didn't someone recently shoot up the Switzerland parliament?

And also, aren't all the Jewish groups hounding the swiss banks for assets that they claim were misappropriated during the WWII era?

Nice brush you paint with. The US has plenty of faults, but it also has plenty of good, I'll take life in the USA any day.
 
Nazis

Switzerland had nothing to do with Jewish money theft or anything. They just have an ultra cool banking system where you don't have to give a name to get an account or bafe deposit box. You are only a number.... and so you can store whatever you want. If Shit head Nazi's take advantage of that and store their loot in the Swiss banks and the Swiss banks do EXACTLY what they have a responsibility to do..i.e protect their clients... then don't blame the Swiss... blame the pig Nazis that stole it and put it there.

And I never said Switzerland is perfect... but on e FOREIGN POLICY LEVEL they bury the US. That's all. Nothing to do with daily life in Switzerland vs the US. FOREIGN POLICY..... again... FOREIGN POLICY!!!!!!!!!!
 
pisces...you condone the Swiss getting rich from stolen Jewish funds? Because although I don't know if any of it is true it sounds like you're saying it happened but you think it's ok.

Stickman...since when did a criticism of this country insinuate a desire to revoke one's citizenship? Nothing offends me more than someone listening to a criticism of US policy and responding "If you don't like it, leave." That is some bassackwards bullshit and I can't stand it. Criticism is exactly what makes democracy powerful. When civil rights was an issue that people criticized, would the US have gotten anywhere if those people making the criticisms had changed their citizenship and left the country? And if you are in support of EVERYTHING the US stands for then I can only guess that you are talking about the PR/propoganda version of what the US stands for because there is plenty of shit that the US is responsible for to various degrees that would shame the most devoted patriot.

Why does an effort to understand the situation and the motivation behind anti-US sentiment abroad mean a person is anti-patriotic? The reason it is relevant to discuss US crimes abroad is NOT TO JUSTIFY TERRORISM. It is to understand the terrain that breeds terrorism.

The other reason it is relevant to discuss US crimes abroad is because I would hope that you would at least want to know why your government was supporting brutal anti-democratic regimes and mass murderers in other countries (as if any answer would suffice.) Do you want them doing that in your name any longer? Because I certainly don't. And again, if you don't think it happens then you are living in a dream world. I don't want to hear that there is or was no choice but to support these conditions. I can't believe that.

It is extremely hard to continue a debate like this after 9/11. I am thankful that I have armed forces to protect my life while I bitch about these things (and I will always support these men and women...the debate would not exist if not for them.) But on the other hand, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't continue the debate, in fact it is all the more reason to. It doesn't mean that I don't think their efforts are oftentimes misappropriated and misguided.

Most of all it does not excuse the indiscretions of US foreign policy and these indiscretions DO EXIST. The US stance of acting "multilaterally when possible but unilaterally when necessary" (a phrase that glosses over so much shit it is rediculous) alienates the rest of the world, including our own allies, and if we are smart, as citizens of this remarkable democratic institution, we will demand change. Because it is in NO ONE'S best interest to continue with effective disregard for the citizens of the rest of the world. Walking the fine line of unfortunately doing the worst by others so that we can do the best by ourselves will and does backfire.

Try Rogue States by Chomsky. Now I know that no one in this discussion knows what is the truth and what is skewed (by media and Chomskies alike) but there is and entire side to the argument that is hidden...and what is not hidden is ignored. At least look at it.
 
complain all you want

But if you don' have a better solution, then all you are doing is complaining without offering up any solutions to correct whatever it is you feel is wrong with America...or anything for that matter. Kind of like a dog that barks for no other reason than to hear it's own voice. That's not constructive on any level. You certainly have the right to make such statements. We all have the right to make empty statements if thats what we want to do. We also have the right to point such statements out.

Again I see someone writing about US crimes abroad, but yet I STILL see no specifics regarding what these crimes are, where they took place or how the USA commited them. What countries are we supporting that are anti-democratic? What mass-murderers are we supporting? We used to support Arafat, I will agree, but thankfully the US has awakened to what a terrorist he really is.

If folks don't like America and can only quote facts about another country in answer to what is wrong with America...how is that offering up a solution to the veiw that America is a bad place? How does that make America better? To me thats not argument that's ever going to do anything except breed more hate and evil. It's empty rhetoric.

I encourage everyone to debate whatever they will in this and all forums across the world. However, complaining for the sake of complaining (without citing facts btw)has yet to do anything except breed ignorance, terrorists and combinations thereof.

On the swiss matter...if they have the perfect method of government and have become the Nirvana of Europe...GREAT FOR THEM!!! Move there or do everything in your power as a citizen to effect change that will make your country similar. Or move there. I wish nothing but the best for the Swiss and EVERY country in the world.

However, I am damn glad I am an American. Proud to be and glad to die as one and most of all, blessed to play American rock and roll!!!
 
American Rock n Roll?????

First of all, just to clear the air...

Rock n Roll was invented by Afrian Americans as a for of blues. The term "Rock n Roll" was made popular by Little Richard as a slang for having sexual intercorse. So I think that "good ol` American rock n roll" is a PERFECT metaphor for the way things run in the good ol` U.S. of A. A severly persicuted ethnic group develops a craft, the white majority likes it, steals it, later condems people for sounding to "colored" (Elvis Presley), then eventually removes enough of the original bases of the style to call it their own, and then thrusts it up in status to, "Another of America's Great Inventions and Contributions to the World!!!" And Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Howlin Wolf, all find themselves on the back shelves on music stores collecting dust, waiting for someone with a sense of history and good blues to come pluck em down and only pay $5 for their CD instead of $20 because it is a bargain bin item. While Stevie Ray Vaghn, Eric Clapton, Johnny Winters, and even that little annoying 16 year old blues guy, take the record sales and all the glory. Now I have NOTHING against any of these guys. To me they ALL rock!, and it is all just music to me. I am only hoping that you are aware of what kind of baggage you are carrying when you throw out a statement like..... "blessed to play American Rock n Roll".

Now with regards to me NOT showing any suggestions on how to improve... I certainly didn't searh around for that CIA page on Switzerland so that you could think about where to go skiing next winter. That was a 6 page list of suggestions on what America could do to better their FOREIGN POLICY!!!! You continually use the word "Goverment" as if I am comparing different governments. I am not comparing different governments; only FOREIGN POLICIES!!!

I am not making "empty redoric". I have produced FACTS. In fact, if I go back through this thread and re-read the posts... I am the ONLY one to produce a single fact. You are just standing there knocking down every point I make without even acknowledging that I have made a point. And then you come back and write some flipped around responses suggesting that I haven't done my homework and don't produce facts. Now that offends me, because I may not be the best political analyst, and my points might be all wrong. And I might actually be all those negative things that people have said... BUT if there is one that I AM, that thurough. I know what I am talking about. I dig deep for my points. I am not one of those "well I saw this on CNN" kind of guys. And I CERTAINLY never felt this way until I moved away from the US for 2 years. If I had stayed there forever, then I probably would be standing right beside you, covering my heart, and saying all those rediculas "I bleed red white and blue" slogans. So although I did not particularly want to leave the US for this business adventure, I thank God that I am not so stuborned, and can actually admit that the US is not always right.

And you have said a couple of times that "American finally woke up and realized that...." Man... come on! Do you really think that with all the intellegence and allies the US has that we were not aware of the Taliban, or Noriega et cetera. The CIA is on top of things like stink on shit. The US would NEVER enter into ANYTHING without a thick blanket of cover. There isn't too much WAKING UP going on, in the since that you put it. We knew all about the problems in WW2, Vietnam, Korea, Persian Gulf, and yes.... in Afganistan as well, LONG before there were Nazis creaping around Poland, and long before there were Viet Cong tippy tapping around south Vietnams rice patties, and long before Sadam Husan went to get some oil from Kuait. Do you really think that we were all dumb struck, like some country boy with a piece of weat in our mouth when ANY of these things happened? America doesn't "wake up". American is always awake. It never sleeps. And that is what makes her such a brilliant Military force. I have to admit I am impressed deep into my bones with the absolute sheer genius of the type of military control the US can excersize at will. But jeez man... what a thing to be proud of.

Peace
 
Here is a track called Tribute to America written after Sept.11/01

Patriotic and not necessarily anti-war, but stoked. We were imagining being the US jet pilots and we were STOKED!!

The President is in it. Kind of like...rapping.

check it out on our page at www.mp3.com/thewithin

Do you like it?

Shannon
of www.TheWithin.com
 
My last comment

<<Rock n Roll was invented by Afrian Americans as a for of blues>>

No doubt rock and roll was born from the blues. However, I gotta get this out of my system. The term African-American to me is OBSCENE. It has done NOTHING to improve the lot of blacks in America. All it has ever done is keep the flames of racism brewing.

<<The term "Rock n Roll" was made popular by Little Richard as a slang for having sexual intercorse>> Lil' Richard (bless his rocknroll soul) But Bill Haley and the Comets were doing "Rock around the Clock" years before Richard. Also, lets not forget the master of payola, Alan Creed also popularized the term rock and roll.

<<I am only hoping that you are aware of what kind of baggage you are carrying when you throw out a statement like..... "blessed to play American Rock n Roll">> I am not concerned with being politcally correct. IMHO, politcal correctness is just a form of think-tank hate. It does nothing but further seperate people and NOTHING to bring people together in a positive way. Besides, to follow your argument as stated, then Grand Funk was wrong to brag about being an American Band? Political Correctness is useless and obscene. I reject it and anyone that follows/believes in it as hate-mongers of the lowest denominator.

<<am not comparing different governments; only FOREIGN POLICIES!!!>>
Governments set foriegn policies. They are seldom, if ever set by public opinion or vote. The CIA is only another branch of the US governemnt.

<<I am not one of those "well I saw this on CNN" kind of guys.>> I don't watch CNN either.

<<I have produced FACTS.>> What crimes has the US committed abroad?
SPECIFC crimes?

<<have to admit I am impressed deep into my bones with the absolute sheer genius of the type of military control the US can excersize at will. But jeez man... what a thing to be proud of.>> Yep, it IS a thing to be proud of. I am deeply moved by the sacrifices made by the members of our military and their willingness to give their lives to protect the country and the rights afforded by our governemnt and way of life.

<<And you have said a couple of times that "American finally woke up and realized that...." Man... come on!>> No doubt there have been terrible decisions made thru the years by numerous presidents and their governments. However, Where would Europe be had we not practiced our foriegn policy thru WW2 and the Cold War? Hmm speaking some form of Russian??? You can't have it both ways.

God Bless American and rock and roll!
 
Crimes

You actually have to ASK someone for crimes committed by the United States. Well these are just the ones that are sitting in the front of my mind. Give me 2 hours and a library card and I will be able to produce a couple of hundred more.

Now I am sure that you will have something to say about each one to make it seem like it either isn’t a crime, or that the US was justified…, or you will mention again that if American had not swept down like the hand of God, then these poor people would be in much worse shape.

- Bay of Pigs - (The CIA attempted to overthrow the Cuban government and have Fidel Castro assassinated)

- Iran Contra Affairs - (The US Government provided arms to known enemies of the United States)

- The Acquisition of Hawaii from it’s queen. - (The US wanted a base in the pacific, so we convinced the queen of Hawaii to allow American soldiers to set up station to “protect her people” from an enemy that did not exist. Then when the had enough mainland Americans on the island, they held a vote, and elected themselves as the leader of Hawaii, and then immediately became the 50th state.)

- The bombing of Dresden in WWII. - (The instruction was issued to all the pilots that bombed Dresden Germany to: “Not come home with empty bomb-bays.” 4 Schools were completely destroyed, 3 hospitals, 9 churches, and over ¾ of the entire city was destroyed. There was only an abandoned ammunitions factory that had been dormant for 8 months.) (And if you mention what the Nazis were doing in the Konzentrationsläger, “Concentration Camps”, then you have missed the point and you are trying to justify our crime by pointing out someone else’s crime. Especially since, the United States wasn’t even aware of what was going on in the camps at that point of the war.)

- The Massacre of Milai in Vietnam - (The execution of civilians in Milai Vietnam.)

- The CIA funded overthrow of the Libian government which caused the entire war.

- The CIAs overthrowing of the government in Chile.

- Genocide of the Sioux nation “Massacre at Wounded Knee” - (along with the overall extinction of Native Americans. (Ok, this is a bit old, but the blood is still there and, try to convince someone living on a reservation that this is just old news.)

Now I since I have produced these crimes and the whole bit about Switzerland… I have to ask you a favor. Could you please come up with a top 10 things that you like about America. And I mean SPECIFI AS POSSIBLE!!! Please do not say, “America is the most free country in the world, and therefore I love to live here.” That is not a reason. I can already feel the “freedom of speech” being somewhere in your top 5. I am talking about a SPECIFIC instance in your life where you said… God, I just love being here. And I do not mean ANYTHING to do with a war. Not like… When we kicked hell out of Sadam, I was so proud to be an American. That is not a reason. Top 10 things that make America different from ANY other country on the planet. What do ya got?
 
okkie dokie

lets take a look here...

<<Bay of Pigs>>You are correct. Sadly we should have supported those fighters and just gotten rid of Castro and the communists in the 1st place. Would have saved countless Cuban lives thru the decades and we wouldn't have had (I think, memory or times is fuzzy cuz I was just an infant when all this happened) the Cuban missle crisis.

<<Iran Contra Affair>> We took money from Iran and gave it to the Freedom Fighters in Nicargua. We got our hostages out and helped get rid of communism in latin America. I will agree the crime was the coverup. Reagan's governemnt erred in just not coming clean about it all in the 1st place.

<<Then when the had enough mainland Americans on the island, they held a vote, and elected themselves as the leader of Hawaii, and then immediately became the 50th state.>> How is this a crime? The PEOPLE of Hawaii had a vote...they chose to become a state. So are you suggesting none of the Hawiian people wanted this? How have they suffered as the 50th state? Where is the crime here?

<<The bombing of Dresden in WWII>>War is hell. War is terrible. War is ugly. That's all that need be said.

<<Genocide of the Sioux nation “Massacre at Wounded Knee”>>I again concur. The way the American Indian has been and still is treated is a crime.

<<The Massacre of Milai in Vietnam>> Agreed and the man that gave the orders and directed that horrible slaughter was convicted and sentenced for his crime.

<<The CIA funded overthrow of the Libian government which caused the entire war>> Huh? Not sure what you are referring to here.

<<The CIAs overthrowing of the government in Chile>> Hmmm...as I recall, Chile's communist governemnt was overthrown and now a democratically elected governemnt is in place. Where's the crime?

<<Could you please come up with a top 10 things that you like about America.>>

1. The Freedom to worship as I chose. (I'm grateful for being taught right and wrong!)

2. The Freedom to educate myself as much as I want (Damn I loved college, what a musical experience it was for me)

3. The Freedom to choose where in this country I want to live. (I've lived in many places in my life and love NOT having to live where I grew up)

4. The Freedom to vote in local and national elections(I remember feeling GOOD about voting for Clinton the 1st time...I remember feeling GOOD about voting for Bush this time around and feeling like I was an active part in a beautiful play)

5. The Freedom to rock and roll (every time I have ever plugged in and played live music I feel this way)

6. The Freedom to think and argue out loud about my governement(I love that we can argue about this without fear..we could do it down at the local bar if we were closer and do so COMFORTABLY while doing so in many other countries can get you killed)

7. The Freedom to buy whatever food I want. (yep, I like being able to buy bread here I think not starving rocks!)

8. The Freedom to associate with whomever I want (at one time I was the only male in an all Lesbian band, twas interesting to say the least. In many Muslim countries we would have been shot or beheaded or worse just for being in existence and all we did was rock and roll)

9. The Freedom to travel and see any part of my nation (I love the fact I can get in my car and drive 3 days and see the Grand Canyon or drive for 2 days --if I wanna miss sleep and go to Vegas. I've done that before and ya can never feel bad about being in Vegas unless you went their to get rich hehehehe)

10. The Freedom to persue whatever dream I want(I am a musician, all I do primarily is write songs and record them. I may never ever get a deal or make any money at it. I can do this without any fear of reprisal from anyone until the day I die.

Funny, the term Freedom seems to be in all of those hehehehe. Wonder why????

This discussion has been interesting. I think we've both made our veiws known. I am now done:) Stay well and rock on.
 
Principals

Hawaiin people are not treated badly I assume. That I will agree. But they were not the ones that voted to have their land taken away. It was the mainland Americans that basically invaded them. Sure, ok not invaded with guns and bumbs. But They were a peaceful island with no enemies on the Earth and then our presence there brought on Pearl Harbor. I am not AT ALL suggesting that we or the Hawaiin people deserved Pearl Harbor. But, it certainly wasn't their mess and it would not have happened there if the Americans were not there. We stole their home and turned it into a tourist attraction. Now they were too naive (as many indigenous people are) to see this in the beginning. But we stole it. We just wanted it, we "needed" it militarily, and we just freaking took it. That, is a crime.

The Bombing of Dresden.... <<<War is hell. War is terrible. War is ugly. That's all that need be said>>>. What in the world kind of response is that? To the Muslims that crashed into the WTC, that was just a war. Now I would love to her how you would react if Osama bin Laden's only deffence of his acctions were... <<<War is hell. War is terrible. War is ugly. That's all that need be said.>>> Tell that to the people that to the parents of people that saw their children's schools bombed to pieces on a Mondy at 1:00 in the afternoon. Their children just beginning their Arithmetic after walking aback from the cafeteria, and then they are blown to pieces, all in the name of a war that they are too young to even understand. Or a grandfather in the hospital is wipped out by a bomb while he can't even stand to get away. "War is hell".... Please man. Really, what IS that?

The Cuban missle crisis was simply the Russians trying to act like America. Branching out. I mean after all... we had not too long before that, set up our nukes in Turkey. Pull out a map if you can't picture the distance from Turkey to Russia. But we just don't hear much about that in school now do we?

Anyway, you can grow all tired of batting down my examples. And you can... "stay well and rock on". Or just get tired and running out of excuses.
 
Haha, what a hypocrite you are pisces.

A german complaining about bombing civilian targets and residential areas during the WWII era (can you say Blitz)?

You know maybe America wouldn't have been bombing anything remotely near Dresden at all if the dumbass Germans hadn't gone insane and started following Hitler and tried to invade every goddamn country in Europe.

Blaming the Allies for cracking the whip on Germany in WWII is just plain stupid, Germany got what they deserved. I really hate to dwell on past mistakes, but ur just asking for it.

As for the Swiss Banking System. I don't think it's nearly as cool as you do. Allowing people to move assets through a system of unidentified accounts causes a lot of problems.

Why would this be cool? It practically begs to be taken advantage of by money launderers, drug lords, terrorist funding, embezzelers, etc..

In your own example the Swiss play See No Evil, Hear No Evil as they turn their back while the Nazis fill up accounts with Jewish wealth from the WWII dispossesed. This kind of "head in the sand" neutrality doesn't make for awesome foreign policy in my book. Will they turn their backs when Osama Bin Laden walks into the lobby of 1st Swiss National?

And btw, why was parliament shot up? You didn't answer that.

"Hawaiin people not treated badly?" They're U.S. citizens, they're treated just like any other citizen.

Btw, a lot of what you are painting as U.S. crimes look like sensible adversarial action against a Soviet threat to me.

Cold War History
 
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maxwolf said:
OK, try this link and click "Revolution #2":

http://maxxwolf.tripod.com/the_what.html
Click to expand...

Not too bad... the guitars are a bit harsh, and the effects are a little too... well... a little goes a long way.

The drums sounding rather good... very natural... mixed well with the overall piece. Vocals sounded rushed... and the entire production probably, at least what I heard, could have used a bit more practice.

As for subject matter... meaningless and irrelevant. Another Abby Hoffman wannabe?
 
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