So seriously, what monitors could be considered ‘Truly Accurate’ ? And are we talking 5k, 10k or 20k before one gets in that ball park?
Alright what do ns10s sound like?
- Thread starter panax_27
- Start date
rob aylestone
Moderator
I'm not sure I can explain as you've not developed enough hands on experience yet - so little things confuse rather than explain?
If you record things your monitors cannot reproduce, then you have to guess how other systems will respond. My example was one where there was not just bass present, but bass present an octave below where it would normally be. Power in the 20-30Hz area isn't even really sound, it's just pressure waves and at that frequency, they will move wall panels, ceiling tiles, and even big normally solid surfaces. Most people don't have monitoring systems that can reproduce such lows, so maybe it doesn't matter, but you have no control and often you don't even know - like me? I was totally unaware I'd recorded subsonics.
Monitors need to reveal. Reveal the obvious and the subtle. Hopefully, reveal at all frequencies, but physics says revealing at the bottom end is difficult and expensive. I'm very happy with the sound of the smaller Genelecs I often find in things like OB trucks and small control rooms, even though the bass is filtered away. Faced with mixing on NS10s, I'd have to try to remember what adjustments I made in the late 90s to the mixes, to compensate for the speakers. In the 25+ years since then I have got more 'safe' - using speakers that don't require such extreme compensation. What I have been searching for are a pair of Tannoy 15" dual concentric studio monitors - so far nothing under two grand for 25 year old versions. These are Marmite speakers. I worked with them every day and knew and trusted what came out. Others hated them, just like NS10s.
If you record things your monitors cannot reproduce, then you have to guess how other systems will respond. My example was one where there was not just bass present, but bass present an octave below where it would normally be. Power in the 20-30Hz area isn't even really sound, it's just pressure waves and at that frequency, they will move wall panels, ceiling tiles, and even big normally solid surfaces. Most people don't have monitoring systems that can reproduce such lows, so maybe it doesn't matter, but you have no control and often you don't even know - like me? I was totally unaware I'd recorded subsonics.
Monitors need to reveal. Reveal the obvious and the subtle. Hopefully, reveal at all frequencies, but physics says revealing at the bottom end is difficult and expensive. I'm very happy with the sound of the smaller Genelecs I often find in things like OB trucks and small control rooms, even though the bass is filtered away. Faced with mixing on NS10s, I'd have to try to remember what adjustments I made in the late 90s to the mixes, to compensate for the speakers. In the 25+ years since then I have got more 'safe' - using speakers that don't require such extreme compensation. What I have been searching for are a pair of Tannoy 15" dual concentric studio monitors - so far nothing under two grand for 25 year old versions. These are Marmite speakers. I worked with them every day and knew and trusted what came out. Others hated them, just like NS10s.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
I don't think so. There are affordable speakers with better LF extension, but they might not have the low group delay of the NS10s (perhaps from being ported designs). Using a subwoofer means the main speakers aren't even reproducing that range, so it becomes a matter of good sub setup.
I think the SOS article on the NS10 would be useful for all of us to read. It kind of opened my eyes. One studio where I sort of consult with regarding their technical arrangements got a pair. I thought they were awful, but after reading the article, I can see a potential use for them, just not as the primary monitors. They might work well in a small studio where placing them against a wall is unavoidable, which will tend to counteract their poor LF extension.
The Yamaha NS10 Story
Love or hate the Yamaha NS10, this unassuming little speaker has found a place in the studios of many of the world's top producers. We trace its history, and investigate why a monitor whose sound has been described as "horrible" became an industry standard.
I’ve read that article a few times. Good article. It covers a lot of technical stuff that one may not understand right away if not educated in the audio sciences. (which I’m not)
But going back to the article at a later point in time, there’s always something ‘new’ to be discovered.
But going back to the article at a later point in time, there’s always something ‘new’ to be discovered.
I don’t know who you’re referring to, but your post was published right after mine.....so maybe your possibly referring to me??
I’ve been recording since the early 90s and had a 16 track demo studio that was booked 7 days a week.
We did a ton of stuff including some commercial release CDs.
Now I’m by no standards a pro based on excellence in recording, but there is some experience. And clients were always happy with the outcome.
NS10S were and are still being used throughout. I think they’re excellent monitors as long as you...1) know them and are aware of the shortcomings, and 2) you cross check with other systems as well.
# 2 should be in practice with whatever monitors you’re using (imho)
Personally I like the sound of the NS10s. I’ve listened to so many commercial release CDs to have my ears accustomed to them.
EDIT: @rob aylestone Congrats on you becoming a moderator. I would imagine your British calmness as well as all your experience in recoding will serve you well.
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rob aylestone
Moderator
Ha! No, I was referring to the OP - being a mod hasn't changed anything apart from me having MORE respect for the poor devils doing it before, as 99% of the workload is totally invisible.
The trouble with this topic, and there are others focussed on similar gear, is that it's really about historic opinion, and personal satisfaction.
What I mean is that we know with total certainty that the AKG C1000 is, and always was, a horrible microphone, and probably best used for hammering in nails rather than putting in front of singers, musicians or instruments. Total fact. Apart from that of course there are lots of people who have them, know them and get good results. It takes a brave user to use them because everyone knows they're terrible.
The stories and worse, jokes, started in the 1990's and never went away. (Jokes, for the young folk here, are strings of words that when joined up, make lots of people laugh. If you don't laugh, that's fine, the joke just wasn't for you)
C1000's were true Marmite microphones, and people made choices. What you didn't do, was try to convince people it was a good mic, because it was the only one you had. Concensus isn't 100%, just close - and concensus was in the 1990s, they were horrible. People were sort of warned off, and most went with it. Newcomers now may actually buy and use them because the whole thing has sort of faded away.
It also works in reverse. If you are a sax player, the Holy Grail (when you don't have one) is a Selmer MkVI. If you don't have one, you shout loudly about how you love the tone of your Tamagochi, or whatever. You proclaim to everyone how your sax is so good, but secretly covet the Selmer you don't have.
Only when you are famous can you play a different brand proudly (possibly your deal with the new Chinese brand might just have swayed your stance).
This is what is happening here I think. The Yamaha speakers are average, but well known, and glued to famous recordings, studios and artist - but the truth is that many engineers don't even remember if a studio had them or not. The British ones I visited mixed on the big ones and at the last stage somebody would say "Better check them on the NS10s" - all the mix had to do was sort of pass. I remember very well the complainers were always the bass players and drummers - where am I? would be the bass players question and the drummer hated the feeble kick. The rest of the band and record company would maintain it was fine, it's just the NS10s. They were, in the studio, a checking tool. Folk lore grew and bizarrely, people now choose to mix on them. If you were doing TV sound for interviews, or a video edit suite, or BBC radio 4, I think they'd work fine.
My comments, and others, are designed to convince the OP that his understanding of what us ancients used NS10s for is a bit mangled. He wanted a list of hits made on them - they really, really weren't. They were tested on them. What is the point in mixing a bass guitar on loudspeakers that cannot handle them? It isn't his fault at all, they've collected a mythical respect - like the STC/Cole 4038 ribbon, the U47, the NS10, the Selmer Mk 6 and loads of other items. The trouble is, all these products can also be horrible in the wrong circumstances. I play sax a bit, and picked my one out of a small selection of things I could afford 30 years ago. I don;t even know what make it is. A friend who cannot play sax, collected loads - having been told they were good investments and had them all lined up for a photo. I put the same mouthpiece on each one and played a few notes. The Japanese one was easily my favourite - but not the Yamaha, nor the Mk6 or the east German ones. Some were nasty, most OK, but the blind test just 20 seconds or so, easily revealed one that sounded nice, was comfy to hold, easy to play and not too heavy, but solid. Try this test with the NS10s and lots of other similar size speakers and I'm certain the NS10s would not be chosen by most people. A few of course, but not many.
Liking the NS10 sound is perfectly fine, but we'll never be convinced. As a personal choice, we cannot say it's wrong, but few of us would want to swap to them. We also shout loudly to protect other people who might read the praise and promote them even more. Maybe that's wrong, but I rarely change my views - just too damn old!
The trouble with this topic, and there are others focussed on similar gear, is that it's really about historic opinion, and personal satisfaction.
What I mean is that we know with total certainty that the AKG C1000 is, and always was, a horrible microphone, and probably best used for hammering in nails rather than putting in front of singers, musicians or instruments. Total fact. Apart from that of course there are lots of people who have them, know them and get good results. It takes a brave user to use them because everyone knows they're terrible.
The stories and worse, jokes, started in the 1990's and never went away. (Jokes, for the young folk here, are strings of words that when joined up, make lots of people laugh. If you don't laugh, that's fine, the joke just wasn't for you)
C1000's were true Marmite microphones, and people made choices. What you didn't do, was try to convince people it was a good mic, because it was the only one you had. Concensus isn't 100%, just close - and concensus was in the 1990s, they were horrible. People were sort of warned off, and most went with it. Newcomers now may actually buy and use them because the whole thing has sort of faded away.
It also works in reverse. If you are a sax player, the Holy Grail (when you don't have one) is a Selmer MkVI. If you don't have one, you shout loudly about how you love the tone of your Tamagochi, or whatever. You proclaim to everyone how your sax is so good, but secretly covet the Selmer you don't have.
Only when you are famous can you play a different brand proudly (possibly your deal with the new Chinese brand might just have swayed your stance).
This is what is happening here I think. The Yamaha speakers are average, but well known, and glued to famous recordings, studios and artist - but the truth is that many engineers don't even remember if a studio had them or not. The British ones I visited mixed on the big ones and at the last stage somebody would say "Better check them on the NS10s" - all the mix had to do was sort of pass. I remember very well the complainers were always the bass players and drummers - where am I? would be the bass players question and the drummer hated the feeble kick. The rest of the band and record company would maintain it was fine, it's just the NS10s. They were, in the studio, a checking tool. Folk lore grew and bizarrely, people now choose to mix on them. If you were doing TV sound for interviews, or a video edit suite, or BBC radio 4, I think they'd work fine.
My comments, and others, are designed to convince the OP that his understanding of what us ancients used NS10s for is a bit mangled. He wanted a list of hits made on them - they really, really weren't. They were tested on them. What is the point in mixing a bass guitar on loudspeakers that cannot handle them? It isn't his fault at all, they've collected a mythical respect - like the STC/Cole 4038 ribbon, the U47, the NS10, the Selmer Mk 6 and loads of other items. The trouble is, all these products can also be horrible in the wrong circumstances. I play sax a bit, and picked my one out of a small selection of things I could afford 30 years ago. I don;t even know what make it is. A friend who cannot play sax, collected loads - having been told they were good investments and had them all lined up for a photo. I put the same mouthpiece on each one and played a few notes. The Japanese one was easily my favourite - but not the Yamaha, nor the Mk6 or the east German ones. Some were nasty, most OK, but the blind test just 20 seconds or so, easily revealed one that sounded nice, was comfy to hold, easy to play and not too heavy, but solid. Try this test with the NS10s and lots of other similar size speakers and I'm certain the NS10s would not be chosen by most people. A few of course, but not many.
Liking the NS10 sound is perfectly fine, but we'll never be convinced. As a personal choice, we cannot say it's wrong, but few of us would want to swap to them. We also shout loudly to protect other people who might read the praise and promote them even more. Maybe that's wrong, but I rarely change my views - just too damn old!
@rob aylestone
That was a long but concise answer. In my own defense of being an NS10 ‘fanboy’ I’ll offer this....
Most likely I was ‘snookered’ Into them at a time when I was clueless and every ‘real studio’ had them.
I started off with a Tascam 246. And while it was a very nice machine, I always knew ‘Real Studios’ didn’t use them. The hype that Bruce Springsteen recorded “Nebraska” on a portasudio didn’t phase me as I knew there wasn’t one in the Record plant or any of the other LA pro studios.
So I settled. It was the best machine I could afford.
Enter NS10s. Here I had a piece of gear that almost every studio had. And I could afford a set.
Enter the Sure SM57. Here was another piece of gear that every ‘real studio’ had.
Enter The AKG 414. Another piece of gear every real studio had.
So at this point in time I had 3 pieces of gear that the big boys had.
Now the mission was to make the music I was doing to sound as close to commercial releases I heard coming out of my NS10s.
Over time I learned how to work with them and grew to love them.
But integral to that was lots and lots of checking on other systems.
If I started out today would I get a set?? Probably not.
I would want a monitor that was truly 100% accurate throughout the whole frequency spectrum. No needing to check a mix in your car, or take it home, or check it at a friend’s house etc.
So in closing, I wouldn’t say I’m a blind supporter of them, I’m just used to them.
That was a long but concise answer. In my own defense of being an NS10 ‘fanboy’ I’ll offer this....
Most likely I was ‘snookered’ Into them at a time when I was clueless and every ‘real studio’ had them.
I started off with a Tascam 246. And while it was a very nice machine, I always knew ‘Real Studios’ didn’t use them. The hype that Bruce Springsteen recorded “Nebraska” on a portasudio didn’t phase me as I knew there wasn’t one in the Record plant or any of the other LA pro studios.
So I settled. It was the best machine I could afford.
Enter NS10s. Here I had a piece of gear that almost every studio had. And I could afford a set.
Enter the Sure SM57. Here was another piece of gear that every ‘real studio’ had.
Enter The AKG 414. Another piece of gear every real studio had.
So at this point in time I had 3 pieces of gear that the big boys had.
Now the mission was to make the music I was doing to sound as close to commercial releases I heard coming out of my NS10s.
Over time I learned how to work with them and grew to love them.
But integral to that was lots and lots of checking on other systems.
If I started out today would I get a set?? Probably not.
I would want a monitor that was truly 100% accurate throughout the whole frequency spectrum. No needing to check a mix in your car, or take it home, or check it at a friend’s house etc.
So in closing, I wouldn’t say I’m a blind supporter of them, I’m just used to them.
As to ‘accurate’ monitors I do have a fondness for coaxial design speakers. I used to have a set of Urei 813s that I loved.
I heard a set of Tannoy golds at a friends house that were lovely and I have a set of Equator D5s which are pretty nice. I’m not familiar enough with them to offer enlightened analysis at this time, but here’s an SOS review.
www.soundonsound.com
I also have a set of Yamaha 344s which are a non ported 3 way system that utilizes the same tweeters as the NS10.
It’s a bigger box with a 10 inch woofer. I like and use them quite a bit because they sound similar to the NS10s, but with much better bass response.
Got some other speakers too : LoL :
I heard a set of Tannoy golds at a friends house that were lovely and I have a set of Equator D5s which are pretty nice. I’m not familiar enough with them to offer enlightened analysis at this time, but here’s an SOS review.
Equator Audio D5
In the D5, Equator have employed the same innovative technology they use in their premium models — but at a remarkably low price.
I also have a set of Yamaha 344s which are a non ported 3 way system that utilizes the same tweeters as the NS10.
It’s a bigger box with a 10 inch woofer. I like and use them quite a bit because they sound similar to the NS10s, but with much better bass response.
Got some other speakers too : LoL :
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jamesperrett
Active member
I'm afraid you can't have mine - I like them too much. I saw some the same as mine for £1200 a while ago but they've become collectable. I often wonder what the new versions sound like but I've not heard them yet.
how would you describe the sound of those tannoys?
yeah i understand i was never trying to promote them because i dont need to they already have a proven track record that speaks for itself and i have seen old studio pictures and videos with only ns10s being there and were not just a check device always. what i was was really orignially trying to do is find out if they would work well for my specific goal. everyone has a different goal of how they want the final product to sound. i get it some people want flatter more broadband frequencies and i thought i wanted that at first but then my goals changed so i think for the money the yamahas will work for me for now. i have also heard some good things about the hs7s and auratones too for exposing midrange detail which is my goal at the end of the day.
rob aylestone
Moderator
You’ve heard things, and it interests you, that’s great, but seeing a picture of a studio with only NS10s means absolutely nothing. People made mistakes back then too. On balance, as a person who has used them, AND better and worse ones, in the period when they were introduced, I’d certainly not buy a pair on ebay now, not even if they were as new and £30. If the internet had been running back then, they’d have generated lots of comment. As it was, it was magazine comments and questions only, and when in SOS magazine somebody asked if they should buy them as their main studio monitors, the answer was always no, every time. Loads of comments on how to tame them, lots of people offering different tweeters, and they were just trouble. This is why I’m so against them now. History, rediscovered. There was even a question in the U.K. Music Technology A Level exam using them as a problem to solve. People explaining about unusual speaker responses, impact on frequency response and what problems this causes in mixes, plus how to react to what they did to the sound.
I‘ll get off my soapbox now, and leave you to it. Sorry.
I‘ll get off my soapbox now, and leave you to it. Sorry.
jamesperrett
Active member
You can really hear into a mix with them. They pull things apart and allow you to hear the effect of very small changes. Thanks to the dual concentric driver, you can work very close to them and be almost immersed in the sound. However, they are efficient and go loud so you can use them for long periods at very realistic levels - which is what many people expect from real studio monitors. The ones I have use HPD drivers which some people think aren't as good as the earlier Gold drivers but I like them. I also found out recently that mine have a bit of history - they were used by Tony Arnold in his Arny's Shack studio in the late 70s.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I love all the Tannoys I’ve heard. Not so much for the individual sound, but the ability to move around in the room far more than ordinary speakers, where off axis you get tonal changes. The accuracy of location in stereo is really good. If you have recorded in M/S and are listening only to mid, bringing in the side is an amazing experience. Doing it on normal monitors is different. The ability to point at something you hear is diminished. The downside I think was that they just couldn’t sound meaty and dark. If you were going to mix metal or EDM they struggled to keep up. I wish I still had mine, they’d be perfect fit what I do now.
the tannoys sound really interesting indeed, however out of my budget at the moment... but last comment on ns10s its been well documented many famouse engineers have been open about using them exclusively to make great sounding records then and now. i did some digging to find that out. the videos and pictures are just sessions that i like personally that i stumbled upon by accident... i never recommend any one buy ns10s unless there trying to do what im doing i guess, this post was about me and my curiosity originally because i was trying to hear how they may compare to my yamaha mt7s. I also have 4 different pairs of studio headphones sonys, beyerdynamic, akg and as far as midrange exposing in my opinion the yamaha mt7s are the best i have heard so far. that being said i will remain open and i would love to hear a pair of tannoys one day as well.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I just bought a sample package if Trevor Horne in the picture are ns10s in his studio. The samples include bass sounds down to 32Hz I bet he wasnt using the NS10s for those he he
jamesperrett
Active member
One of Tannoy's adverts in the 1970's claimed that something like 80% of UK studios were using Tannoy speakers (although not always in Tannoy cabinets). You probably see as many Tannoy speakers in studio shots as you do NS10s but they tend to be hiding in the background rather than sitting on the meter bridge.