A "Recording For Dummies" question on preamps

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Everything is horses for causes, using logic, sense and reason.
Just because you've got a bundle of really expensive gear, doesn't mean you need to use it all the time.
One very well known singer I often work with. I have tried everything on his voice, but apart from in a slow ballad, he just sounds best on a Shure 57, so that's what we use.

A lot of tracks ... its cool now in the digital realm, and its just something you get used to. I use lots of tracks when I'm recording, which gives me max flexibility in the mix. And if I think back to when I started...... then you had to track at least your bass and drums in one go, to 2 tracks, and spend hours comping to release more needed tracks.... the more available the better!

The only problem is --- doing large mixes on an analogue board without automation kept you pretty fit, now you can just stay in the sweet spot, and need "external excersize" :)
 
I've never worked in a studio, but I can picture four or five individuals, each with a designated range of tracks along with instructions as to what dials/faders to adjust and when - during final mixdown. Was this how it would actually work if the console couldn't be automated? Must have drove engineers nuts, especially on complicated mixes.
 
Sorta like you described, but with less people :)
Didn't really drive me nuts... there was no alternative! If I work on a large console now, with for instance just moving faders rather than full automation of all parameters, yes, it drives me totally crazy. But then, that's because I know what I could do easy with full automation.
In those days there were much more "nailbiters", cutting and pasting parts of songs ment really that - taking a razorblade to a 2" tape, slicing the tape, and putting it back togeter again with sticky tape. Can you imagine doing that to a finished song? Without a back-up copy? It was normal. If you wanted to, for instance, repeat a part of a chorus, you'd dump it onto another tape machine and fly it in... no sync tools! Just do it by ear, hold the reel with your hand, listen, and let go just at the right time, allowing for the motor to reach the right speed. Do it a couple of thousand times and you get to know the timing of each individual machine...
 
another preamp question

I hope it is ok that I respond to this thread but I have a very basic question. I have jsut begun recording on a four track. By what I have read in this post, it seems that I should be running everything thtrough a preamp before plugging it into the four track.
If I am micing my guitar amp, should I then run that mic through a preamp before plugging it into the four track. Thanks for your help.
 
Sjoko

How does the BlueTube compare to the Symmetrix? I just purchased a BlueTube two nights ago for $130. I have 30 days to return it. If necessary, I am willing to spend the extra money if it means getting a significantly better preamp. Thanks.
 
Really difficult to compare. The Symetrix 528E is a preamp, a compressor, limiter, expander, gate, de-esser and has a 3 band parametric EQ. So really its a complete voice processor rather than just a preamp.
You know the "rich, deep" sound favored by the majority of radio and television broadcasters? That's a 528. Of cause, with so many adjustment possibilities, its a good tool for tracking lots of different things. I use 528's a lot for drums, especially kick and snare, and for bass. This allows me to track the sound exactly the way I want to hear it to tape, so I won't have to apply a lot of EQ or processing in a mix.
Of cause, its more expensive as well. Best thing to do - try one!
Find a supplier near you, borrow one. If they won't let you, email me.
 
Doesn't your 4 track have a preamp per channel as part of its mixer functionality?
 
In case of confusion.....

The preceding reply was intended for sneil.
 
sjoko2 said:
I'll go as low as I can / know off with stuff that works.

Symetrix 302 Dual - 2 pre's with 15dB pads - under $250 (for 2!)
Rane MS1 - about $150
DBX286E - basically a cheaper copy of the most used pre in broadcasting, the Symetrix 528E. Lots of features for about $225
Event EMP1 - about $200

My choice would be, of cause, the Symetrix. Their 528's are my most used ones
Click to expand...

Ok, that's a great list. This is the kind of useable information from a pro that I'm looking for. How about taking it another step further to a higher sonic quality level (for stuff that you know works):

Solid state pres in the $400 - $700 range.

Tube pres in the $500 - $700 range.

I think there are quite a few people here who can afford something in this range, as many have demonstrated already.
 
OK - no good just typing something, so give me a couple of days to compile a good list
 
Thanks sjoko2, I'm not in a hurry. I appreciate you taking the time. I've already been studying this preamp shit for a year now. The choices are mindboggling, and the intoxicating hype flows like rivers of vine rose. I know there are many fine choices, and ultimately you need to learn how to best use the tools you have. But I'm only going to buy once.

I hope.



I see you like to stay up late, too.
 
First, Moelar, I'm sorry - I think you were talking about the Symetrix 302, not the 528. My mistake, the 302 is a very good little unit and cheap for what it is. Just compare it the the one you bought, matter of taste.

Re tdkex question - the reason I hesitated in responding is because I get to use all kinds of stuff in a work environment, not in a shop, and more often than not I don't have a clue what it costs. So when I made a small list and started looking at prices - I went oooops! Needed to add zero's.

Before someone breeths down my neck for it, I don't think its a secret that I do have relationships with some manufacturers, Lucid / Symetrix, and others. I would like to point out that those relationships stem from my use of their products, leading to long term endorsements, involvement in development, and testing of new stuff etc. If I therefore recommend a product its because I like it and use it in preference to other products, and thats all.

I didn't split a list in tube or SS. Good is good, and that's all there is to it. If you want that 'warmth' of a tube, its my forecast that within a year we will see a bunch of cheap plug-ins on the market to give you the exact effect. After all, the sound of a tube is a pleasant harmonic distortion. High-end 'tube-emulator' hardware is already available, and is very good indeed.
Note: I am not saying that this will eliminate the need for a good tube pre, it never will. It will hopefully eliminate the need for a cheapass bad sounding pre.

Please also note that this is just my selection of things I have used/heard/know to work well, and that's all. In many cases the list price is a bit higher than you asked for, but I'm sure with some shopping around........ And don't forget 2nd hand gear!!


1. Grace Design 101
A new single channel pre. I think its going to retail in the $500 range.
Balanced transformerless mic input, high impedance instrument input. Balanced xlr and 1/4" trs outputs, 48 Volt phantom power
11 position silver contact rotary gain switch, 10dB output attenuator, 75Hz 12dB/octave transitional Thompson-Butterworth high pass filter, LED peak meter showing signal present and peak conditions.
I've always loved both the build and sonic qualities of this manufacturer, and this is the first time they have made a single channel, cheaper pre, which still has all the features that make Grace products so good. This one blew me away, it sounds not good but great. Very very hard to beat for the price, my first choice.

2. Symetrix 528E.
I think its safe to say that this is the favorite pre of broadcasters globally. For good reason. A 528 can make the most mediocre voice sound good. The backbone of my rig, live as well as in the studio, to me simply the most versitile tool.
Six separate functions: mic pre, de-esser, compressor/limiter, downward expander, parametric EQ, and voice symmetry alignment. All six processors can be used simultaneously. Great for vocals and everything else, drums in particular.

3. PreSonus MP20
I think this dual servo Class-A pre sells for about $600.
It features a twenty dB pad, phantom power, an 80Hz roll-off, polarity reverse, and a means to control the tube's harmonic distortion. If you want a pre really as a devise to introduce 'tube-sound', this might be the cheapest good sounding way to achieve it.

4.SPL GoldMike 9844
A dual-channel tube pre, featuring two backlit VU-meters and Class-A tube circuitry used throughout the signal chain. Each channel designed as an independent mono unit to provide separation between channels. A “Flair” function is designed to add clarity and “air” to vocals. Retail: $999.
Pretty good little tool.

5. I thought about putting the Bellary RP520 here, which is just over $500. But to be honest, it doesn't make it against the ones above.

6. Joemeek VC6Q
I'm not a Joemeek fan (at all). But we're getting very limited in really good sounding choices here! Should sell for about $600 But it has a clear 'sound' all of its own. Like it, or loath it, but its not one that would work on everything in my opinion.

There are more, but not any I would use, let alone consider buying, or advising anyone to buy. The little Grace is on my shopping list, I just have to have one. If I see the PreSonus in a studio, I'd most likely use it for something. I haven't lived without a 528 for many years, and I'm not about to start.
That's it, hope it helps. Not a lot of choice in that price range.
 
Just as an added point to Sjoko's list... the Presonus VXP is a single channel of the MP20's pre, plus the extra "vocal processing" circuitry (all of which is defeatable!)
Retails at $900 cdn/$600 us.

Bruce
 
Thanks sojko2 (and Bruce). I appreciate your detailed response. I had already been considering (based on some research) the Grace Design preamp for vocals and acoustic instruments. The Symetrix 528 I haven't heard of but will look into--as I will the others. The presonus (VXP, I think) received a very favorable review from ProRec.

Thanks again, guys.
 
Built-in preamps with 4-track recorders

A little more confusion here, which stems from psmith's response to sneil. He asked, "Doesn't your 4 track have a preamp per channel as part of its mixer functionality?"

Yes, it seems like most recorders do, but aren't the external preamps that are recommended above meant to be used in lieu of, or in conjunction with, the built-in 4-track recorder preamps? Please clarify.

thanks
 
In lieu of. Unless we are talking about preamps in mainstream consoles, build-in preamps go the same way as buil-in converters and synchronisation clocks - meaning they are there, but they are build at a cost / to fit a space.

Preamps are one of the key elements of a recording chain, as important as, or perhaps more important than, a good microphone. To clarify this: Lets take for instance a Shure 57 costing under 100 bucks, and an Audio Technica 4060, costing well over 10 times that. Put them both through a bad preamp, they will both sound bad, even the AT. A good preamp, and even the 57 will sound very decent.

The price-bracket for the pre's above is considered at the low end of the scale for good preamps. Really good, accurate and fast pre's can cost thousands per channel.
 
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